Thursday, August 09, 2007
Dever on the Rise of Reformed Theology
For the past few months Mark Dever has been doing a series on why we have seen such a huge resurgence in Reformed Theology in the last few years. I think his 10th and final installment has been the most thought provoking. You can find it here.
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6 comments:
This comment is great.
"Yes, anything other than reformed theology is weak and watered down and has a god that is weak and impotent and depends on us."
This guy is so right. I worship a weak, watered down "god". It's very loving of him to say that about someone he has never even met or had a conversation with. He has no idea what I believe, however since I have not accepted his label, my faith is put to shame. Dignity thief. The greatest concern of my brothers in the reformed movement should not be basking in their current popularity, but doing damage control for their ever growing reputation as arrogant jerks. Many take greater pride in being "little Pipers" than in being "little Christs". You would expect more humility from people who claim to be so depraved. You would expect more love from people who claim such extravagant grace. According to this guy, my faith is in pretty bad shape. May "god" help my congregation. Oh wait, according to him my god is weak and impotent. he probably can't.
Dear Mr. You know who, zachy poo,
I can agree with one thing you seemed to infer. Mr. Dever should have written, "God", (instead of god). Just because Dever doesn't agree with the Arminian view of God, it doesn't mean he should infer that these believers are not true Christians. This was not wise in my opinion. Arminians are Christian brothers and our friends, even if we cannot agree on several things.
I apologize if some Calvinists have left a bad taste in your mouth/heart. I assure you, we are sinners just like you and the rest - as you so well know!
I do think you are taking Mr. Dever's quote a little too hard, however. He is trying to make a point about Arminianism here, he is not making personal attacks on individuals. Rather than take this as a personal affront, could you offer some support as to why you think he has so wrongly represented Arminianism? That is the issue in discussion here. I would much rather hear from you about this, since I have never met you personally. Lastly, I would hope you would reserve judgment on whether I am an "arrogant jerk" since you have never met me personally either. I truly want to know your thoughts.
I look forward to your response.
Mark,
John's (the first comment) quote is not Dever. It's from the comment thread of Dever's post. John's just an angry wanna be Arminian/soon to be Calvinist.
:)
z
Z,
Thanks for your correction. I should have checked this out before I wrote.
The same questions stand though about the "theologian" who made these comments as well as the other questions I asked.
Mark,
As you can see from Zach's response, we have a friendly, if somewhat sarcastic, ongoing dialogue on the subject. Please forgive me if I forgot that anyone else was reading this! As he noted, my quote was not from Denver, but from one of the comments on his blog. Generally the leaders of the reformed movement have been respectful and intelligent in their speech. I do, however, regret that they have not been more pro-active to address the tone of the conversation at large. I know that they are aware of it, as I have heard them make a comment here or there, usually joking. Driscoll even laughs about young calvinists being able to smell an Armenian from far off, drooling like pit bulls waiting to get ahold of him. Every young reformer that I have spoken to is aware of the reputation, and most apologise. Yet I see no one making a concerted effort to bring discipleship to the situation on a broad scale. I didn't say that all reformers are arrogant jerks, but that the movement is gaining that reputation. If I was considered a key leader of such a popular movement, my greatest concern would be that we, "be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves." I guess my concerns are two fold.
First, that the movement is built around one or two guys. For practical purposes, Piper is the pope, as his theology is seen as infalible and by which all other theology is judged. Cult of personality is dangerous for any ministry and it is a difficult to avoid, as people are generally drawn to people. In every church or para-church ministry we must strategically work to try to avoid this.
Secondly, from my understanding, Luther's reform went far beyond predestination. His 95 theses nailed to the Castle Church door on October 31, 1517 were truly revolutionary. His courage and passion for truth rescued the gospel much like Paul's letter to the churches of Galatia. If those of the reformed theology desire to further promote and celebrate this achievement, shouldn't their work and discussion be mostly about the integrity of the church worldwide? Isn't that what this was all about in the begining? More than predestination, shouldn't they be working to keep our church governments biblical and free from the manipulation and trappings of men?
I believe wholeheartedly that there needs to be a modern reformation. I just believe that in the true form of Luther, it should go beyond one theological point. There is so much more to be done, and it all seems like we argue this one point while people are turning away from God's house due to many other issues.
What would that discussion involve? One suggestion is what I call "the ark effect." Just as Noah built the ark to save God's people from the danger going on in the world, so today's church often provides a safe place to avoid the elements. From built-in coffee shops to gyms and rec centers, we are becoming increasingly self focused and self preserving. When the "Family Life Center" idea was birthed in the 80's, the vision was to create a place that people from the community could come, or be invited, that was inside the church yet provided a common ground. Guys could invite someone from work to play basketball or work out there. Women could bring friends to aerobics. Today, the vast majority of these facilities have become "members only". Even if you are a member of the church, you still have to buy a gym membership! It never ceases to amaze me how we can take something meant to further the kingdom and use it for our own comfort. This is just one example, but there are so many ways that the modern church needs to be brought back to its original purpose. How much of our resources are we devoting ourselves in contrast to the poor, the widows and the orphans? I digress.
This has been a long rant, but I just wanted to give you a bigger picture of what my thoughts are. I look forward to your thoughts.
Thank you Johnny P.,
It was nice to see your more formal approach to the question - and I was pleasantly surprised to find some really good thoughts there to consider. - By the way - Help Z to stay away from the sarcasm!
I want to address just two brief disagreements I have with what you wrote.
1. Many Calvinists, including me, are eager to help their friends in this issue because it concerns MANY issues of vital importance, namely - Who is God and what are His purposes? Calvinism is not just one point, but rather it touches on almost every vital issue in the Bible. When I began to see more clearly THROUGH THE BIBLE - (I want to stress that since many Calvinists, like you said seem to quote from Piper more than the Bible.) that God was a whole lot greater, and His plans and ways and purposes were a whole lot greater than what I formerly imagined them to be, I was changed in a great way. I began to feel a need to share with other about this great God and also to help the poor and to bring this glorious gospel of God to the nations. (I presently live in Japan as a missionary here.)
2. You made a lot of points about Luther. May I just suggest that maybe Piper is a mini-Luther of our day? I don't want to make a denomination around him, but I also do not want to ignore a man that points so often and so well to the Scriptures. For me, Piper is a mini-Luther in that he IS bringing about a reformation in the west, along with many other great teachers and preachers who point us back to the great and sovereign God of the Bible. This gets us away from "the trappings of men" better than anything I know. - At least for me it did.
Zach has my e-mail if you'd like to respond. Thanks for reading, John. God bless.
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