Rick Warren: The Most Important Interview I’ve Ever Done

Rick Warren:

After teaching How to Get Through What You’re Going Through” for the past eight weeks, Kay and I felt it was time to grant the first media interview since Matthew’s death. We chose CNN’s Piers Morgan Live because it offered a full-hour for us to share our thoughts, rather than just short sound bites. 

What happened in the taping surprised us all. Several members of the tech/camera crew were in tears, hugged us, and told us that their lives had been profoundly impacted by the experience. Piers Morgan was unusually sensitive to the moment, allowing us all the time we needed without interruption. At lunch, Piers shared that it was the most moving interview he’s ever done. 

In kindness, the CNN team came to us, taping the interview at our Acts of Mercy family foundation office. In our conversation, we discussed:

• What it was like to parent a child who battled mental illness all his life.

• What it has been like to grieve our son’s suicide as public figures.

• Mental illness, depression, guns, grief, and God.

• What needs to change in our culture, including removing the stigma from mental illness.

• How to support the mentally ill and the families who care for them.

• How our faith has been tested and has grown stronger.

• How we get our sins forgiven, purpose for living, and home in heaven through Jesus.

• The overwhelming love we’ve received from our church family and others.

• How God gives us HOPE in our darkest days.

The interview was raw and real. The CNN crew and our staff watched almost breathlessly. For an entire hour, you could’ve heard a pin drop, everyone was so riveted by what God was doing through the conversation. 

I wanted to take an opportunity to pass along some of the most significant things we were privileged to say, and I would welcome your feedback on the interview.

Read the rest for interview highlights.

Brownies Pianos and the Sufficiency of Spirit

Is it ‘Unspiritual’ to be Discouraged?

Sinclair Ferguson:

From time to time over the centuries some Christians have taught, sometimes with tragic consequences, that a truly spiritual person never gets discouraged. To be cast down is, by definition, to be ‘unspiritual.’ Unless we are well-grounded in Scripture, it is very easy for us to be overwhelmed, confused, and even more discouraged by such teaching.

This teaching certainly seems logical: if the gospel saves us, it must save us from discouragement! It also appears to be wonderfully spiritual. After all, are we not ‘more than conquerors through him who loved us’ (Rom. 8:37)?

But this is not biblical logic, nor is it true spirituality.

Read the rest.

Check out Dr. Ferguson's books here.

The Problem with "Mental Illness"

David Murray:

No credible Christian I know of says that all instances of depression, anxiety, etc., are always mental illness and never the result of personal sin. Yet sometimes that impression is given because of language and emphasis.

Similarly, no credible Christian I know of says that all instances of depression, anxiety, etc., are caused by personal sin and are never the result of mental illness. Yet sometimes that impression is given because of language and emphasis.

As we saw yesterday, part of the reason for these false impressions is the absence of mutually agreed terminology that would cover both physical and spiritual causes. However, there are steps we can all take to bring Christians who disagree on these matters a bit closer together.

I’m going to ask “mental illness maximizers” (those who speak mostly in illness/disease categories) to reach out to “sin maximizers” (those who speak mostly in moral categories), and then I’m going to reverse the process. I realize that these are not two totally distinct groups and that most of us fall somewhere on the spectrum between them. But, wherever we fall, we can all make an effort to bridge the divide and work more cooperatively and respectfully.

Read the rest.


Recommended resources:

• When the Darkness Will Not Lift: Doing What We Can While We Wait for God--and Joy
• Depression: Looking Up from the Stubborn Darkness
• Spiritual Depression: Its Causes and Cure

No Blessing Like Health — With the Exception of Sickness

Spurgeon:

One Sabbath morning, I preached from the text, “My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken Me?” and though I did not say so, yet I preached my own experience. I heard my own chains clank while I tried to preach to my fellow-prisoners in the dark; but I could not tell why I was brought into such an awful horror of darkness, for which I condemned myself.

On the following Monday evening, a man came to see me who bore all the marks of despair upon his countenance. His hair seemed to stand up right, and his eyes were ready to start from their sockets. He said to me, after a little parleying, “I never before, in my life, heard any man speak who seemed to know my heart. Mine is a terrible case; but on Sunday morning you painted me to the life, and preached as if you had been inside my soul.”

By God’s grace I saved that man from suicide, and led him into gospel light and liberty; but I know I could not have done it if I had not myself been confined in the dungeon in which he lay.

I tell you the story, brethren, because you sometimes may not understand your own experience, and the perfect people may condemn you for having it; but what know they of God’s servants? You and I have to suffer much for the sake of the people of our charge. . .  

You may be in Egyptian darkness, and you may wonder why such a horror chills your marrow; but you may be altogether in the pursuit of your calling, and be led of the Spirit to a position of sympathy with desponding minds. (An All Round Ministry, 221–222)

Read the rest for some reflection from John Piper.


Recommended resources:

• When the Darkness Will Not Lift: Doing What We Can While We Wait for God--and Joy
• Depression: Looking Up from the Stubborn Darkness
• Spiritual Depression: Its Causes and Cure

Matthew Warren, His Family, And Guidelines For The Rest of Us. . . .

Walt Mueller:

I'm not sure that I've ever wrestled with the title and content of a blog post with greater care or for a longer amount of time. Nothing about titling this post or developing its content seems right. I don't know the Warren family. Any public mention of this in today's self-serving world of personal brand-building via technology and all its tools seems exploitive. That's not my intent. Rather, my intent here is to speak to how I've already heard some people speak to Matthew Warren's death.

Everyone is talking about this story. News media and social media has been buzzing since Saturday when the news about Matthew Warren's death broke. I haven't even come close to watching all the reports or tracking what everyone is saying about what happened and what led up to it. It's horrible. . . plain and simple. This is not the way things are supposed to be and we all know that in our gut. Nobody is feeling that more than this young man's family and friends. The rest of us - unless we've been through it - can't even begin to imagine.

Some of what I've seen and heard has been troubling. It's for that reason that I want to very quickly mention some guidelines that I believe might be helpful as we ponder how to best respond to what's happened. . . not only in this story, but in the thousands of others like it. Here are some strongly stated Don'ts and one simple Do. . . .

• Don't speculate. Don't speculate on what happened or the reasons behind it. Don't speculate on the specific causes and circumstances. We don't know. We won't know. We don't need to know.
• Don't blame. The legalists and Pharisees among us will quickly dissect this in ignorant ways that throw blame, and shred an already hurting family. Enough said.
• Don't simplify. This was a 27-year-old man whose story was just as complex as your story and my story. There are no easy answers here.
• Don't exploit the story. . . especially on social media.
• Don't downplay depression. It's not something a person can magically turn on and turn off with the flick of switch or a decision. If you've been there yourself or with someone you love, you know how powerful, deeply difficult, and complex depression is.
• Don't discount what God will do. God will glorify Himself through this.
• Do pray. Pray for Matthew Warren's family and friends. Pray for all those who suffer under the debilitating cloud of depression.

Suicide, Mental Illness, Depression, and the Church

Justin Taylor has a very helpful round up of resources dealing with suicide, mental illness, depression, and the church.

A Good Kind of Depression

“I was scrubbing the kitchen floor depressed about the lack of progress in the lives of people I was discipling. As I continued to scrub, I realized I had the same problems, which made me even more depressed. Then it dawned on me that my inability, my minidepression, was my door to God. In fact, God wanted me depressed about myself and encouraged about his Son.”

— Paul Miller, A Praying Life, 57

No Such Thing as "Meaninglessness"

C. Michael Patton:

...the thing that must unite us as Christians is that there is no such thing as “meaningless.” That word does not need to be in our vocabulary. We should not have a dictionary which gives it any life. It is a word reserved for the atheist, the deist, and the pantheist, but not the Christian. I am not saying we don’t look it in the face from time to time (God knows I do), I am just saying that we cannot allow ourselves to camp there. That campground is off-limits for Christians. There are so many things out there that have webbed feet on dry land. There are so many sciatic nerves which cause us to cry “why?” There are so many mothers who are unable to walk or talk. There are so many children who die untimely deaths. There are so many times when our pain seem meaningless. But our faith is not dependent on finding immediate understanding and fulfillment for our pain. Sometimes we do punt to the eschaton knowing that there is meaning behind it, even if we don’t know what that meaning is today.

Read the rest.

Thinking as Means to Inner Peace

Tim Keller:

I've always been impressed by the contrast between contemporary strategies for coping with stress and Paul's counsel for how to get inner peace. Modern approaches tell you to take time off, to get a better work-leisure balance, to block negative and guilty thoughts, to exercise and to learn relaxation techniques. Modern books never tell stressed people: "Think about the big questions of life. Where are we from? Where are we going? What is the meaning of life?"

But Paul says, "Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable . . . think about such things. . . . And the God of peace will be with you" (Phil. 4:8-9). In effect he is saying: "Think! God made the world and we turned from him—but he's come back to save us at infinite cost to himself. And some day he will put everything right and we will live with him forever. If you really understood and believed that, nothing could get you down for long. So think. If you are discouraged, think about and take hold of Christian doctrine until it puts some health and peace into you."

In short, the world tells you to get peace by not thinking too hard; Christianity tells you that you get peace by thinking very hard—learning, grasping, rejoicing, and resting in the truths of the Word of God.

So learn biblical doctrine—for your health.

Read the rest.

Books by Tim Keller:

• The Prodigal God  
• King’s Cross 
• Gospel in Life: Grace Changes Everything 
• The Reason for God  
• Counterfeit Gods  
• Generous Justice

Wrestling With the Final Chapters of Job and Reflecting on the Depressed Person

The final chapters of the book of Job are some of the most scary and comforting verses in all the Bible. Hard to handle for sure. Carl Trueman comments:

Preaching through Job recently, I was very struck by the Lord's final intervention. Job has suffered incredibly throughout the book; and we, the readers, know that none of this is his fault. It is the result of the battle between God and the Accuser and, if anything, Job's suffering is thus the result of his devotion to the Lord, which Satan wishes to test. And by the end of Job's last big speech (Job 31) he is depressed, and with good reason. The man has lost everything.

When God finally comes to Job, to this man who has suffered so much devastation, it is stunning that he comes in the whirlwind. No still small voice here: he comes in the whirlwind (and a brief search of 'whirlwind' passages in the Old Testament indicates that is not indicative of what we might call good bedside manner). Further, the Lord tells Job to arm himself as a man ('man up', I guess, would be the modern cliché) and then, rather than telling Job to deal with his own sin or even expressing the tiniest fragment of sympathy for him in his suffering, he subjects Job to a blistering lecture about divine greatness and sovereignty. Then, when Job has been crushed into silence, the Lord pushes on relentlessly, describing two terrifying beasts, Behemoth and Leviathan. If Robert Fyall's exegesis is correct (and I believe it is) then Leviathan is Satan; thus, only at this point does God offer any real help (as we might understand it) to Job, as he lifts the curtain just a little and allows Job to grasp that his suffering is a function of a greater and more complicated universe than he can possibly imagine, and that, whatever the empirical facts, the Lord has ultimate and overall control.

As I preached on this passage, I highlighted the fact that, by the criteria of today's world, even by the criteria of modern pastoral theology, the Lord is a total failure. Far too abrupt, harsh and unsympathetic. This is even more striking, given that the Lord knows that Job's suffering is nothing to do with any specific sin Job has committed or harbours in his heart. Job is not responsible for his own suffering: that is, after all, the basic premise of the book.Yet the Lord comes in the whirlwind. Not exactly touchy-feely pastoral, is it?

The Lord knows Job's suffering is not Job's fault. Thus, he does not tell Job to examine himself to root out his sin. Further, he seems to show no sympathy for Job; he berates him from the whirlwind; he offers no kind words of encouragement; and he does not even restore Job until after the sacrifice and intercession of the last chapter. We should also ask: how complete was Job's restoration? This man had lost ten children. Yes, he receives ten more. But children are not like iPods: they have individual identities, faces, histories, personalities. The loving father knows that each and every one of his children is, quite literally, irreplaceable. How many nights in later life would Job have lain awake, remembering with a broken heart the names and faces and the stories and the good times of his first children? And none of this was anything to do with Job's own sins or faults.

The lessons of Job are manifold but it seems that a few rather stand out: this is acomplicated, fallen, evil world; Christians can expect to suffer - hey, we all die in the end, no matter how jolly we might feel at points in the interim, so we had better get used to the idea; Christians are no more exempt from depression than they are from cancer or strokes; and the idea that these things are necessarily linked to our lack of faith, to our personal sin, to our outlook on life, or, indeed, to anything intrinsic to us, is nonsense and unbiblical. A pastoral theology which has not grappled with the whirlwind and the speeches of the last part of Job is sub-biblical; and preaching which does not take these things into account is not biblical preaching. One might add that perhaps one of the key lessons of Job (and the Psalms, for that matter) is: it is OK to be depressed. It is horrible and grim and dark. But it may not be your fault, any more than cancer or a stroke are your fault. Above all, it does not mean that you are forgotten by God, even if God only ever seems to come to you in the whirlwind; and, finally, it does not mean that you will not participate in the glorious resurrection when all the travails of this world will be definitively left behind.

Antidote To Anxiety = Creation

Josh Blount:

Anxiety drains the life from your soul. It’s spiritual death by blood loss: a slow, steady drain on your vitality and passion and joy. It ends with helplessness and hopelessness. How do we fight it? How do we stop the bleeding so that our souls don’t shrivel and shrink under anxiety’s constant squeeze?

While God has given us numerous remedies for the malady of worry, there’s one we often might forget: the created world. All around us, every day of our lives, there is overflowing evidence that God rules his world and rules it well. Creation quietly and constantly reveals the power and wisdom of God. Consider the seasons: The colors of fall are an art display on a grander scale that uses a more glorious palette than any human art exhibit – and God pulls it off year after year without a single hitch.

Read the rest.

Ed Welch Speaks About Helping The Depressed Person

Great stuff here.



Recommended books:

• When People Are Big and God is Small: Overcoming Peer Pressure, Codependency, and the Fear of Man (Resources for Changing Lives)
• Running Scared: Fear, Worry & the God of Rest
• When the Darkness Will Not Lift: Doing What We Can While We Wait for God--and Joy

From Derision to Compassion: The Death of Junior Seau

Nick Lannon:

It was like a switch was thrown. I was at an open gym, shooting baskets with a bunch of guys, talking about the news of the day: the apparent suicide of former NFL great and presumptive Hall of Famer Junior Seau. Many of the guys couldn’t believe that a man who was so famous, so rich, who had so much, could be depressed. What could possibly be so bad about his life that it wasn’t worth living? The tone of the conversation quickly became derisive. Seau must have been weak. Fragile. Pathetic. Then someone suggested that his brain may have been irreparably damaged by the numerous minor head traumas he suffered over the course of his playing career.

It was like a switch was thrown. All of a sudden, no one had a cutting remark. No one was talking about how satisfied they were with so much less than Seau had. We recalled the story of Dave Duerson, another former NFL player who committed suicide, who had shot himself in the chest expressly so that his brain could be studied; he had known his depression was physically sourced (subsequent medical examination of his brain proved him right). The mood in the gym became somber, and the tone, compassionate.

I couldn’t believe how quickly derision became compassion. Then I realized what had really happened: the group had collectively transitioned from seeing Seau as basically “able,” that is, in control of and responsible for his actions and mental state, to basically “disabled,” that is, the victim of forces beyond his control. It is only natural to feel derision for people who are able to control themselves and do not, and just as natural to feel compassion for people who are unable to control themselves.

Read the rest.

Is It Right for a Christian to Take Anti-Depressants?

Russell Moore writes well on this topic.  His conclusion:

There are some Christians who believe any psychiatric drug is a spiritual rejection of the Bible’s authority. I’m not one of them. But there are other Christians who seem to think, with the culture around us, that everything is material and can be solved by material means. I don’t think that’s right either.

Keep working with your doctors to treat your depression. If you’re not happy with the treatment or with the side-effects, seek some additional medical opinion, and listen for wisdom in a multitude of counselors. As you note in your question, sometimes the side-effects of these drugs are awful. Communicate with your doctor, and read up to ask the right kinds of questions.

But spend time too with those who know you and love you, and ask if there’s more behind this than simply serotonin reception. God doesn’t want you to be simply, in the words of one observer of the current pharmacological utopianism, “comfortably numb.” He wants you to be whole.

Read the rest.

Waking Up Feeling Fragile

John Piper:

There are mornings when I wake up feeling fragile. Vulnerable. It’s often vague. No single threat. No one weakness. Just an amorphous sense that something is going to go wrong and I will be responsible. It’s usually after a lot of criticism. Lots of expectations that have deadlines and that seem too big and too many.

As I look back over about 50 years of such periodic mornings, I am amazed how the Lord Jesus has preserved my life. And my ministry. The temptation to run away from the stress has never won out — not yet anyway. This is amazing. I worship him for it.

How has he done this? By desperate prayer and particular promises. I agree with Spurgeon: I love the “I wills” and the “I shalls” of God.

Instead of letting me sink into a paralysis of fear, or run to a mirage of greener grass, he has awakened a cry for help and then answered with a concrete promise.

Here’s an example.

Read the rest.

So good to know that I am not the only one.

My Own Experience With Depression

We planted our church last summer on July 25th, 2010.  That first worship service was the culmination of 18 months of planning and hard work on the part of myself and my two other co-pastors.  It was one of the hardest seasons of our lives.  A few months later we had about 40 people attending our church and during a service in September I distinctly remember sitting in the congregation and this thought came over me, "Wow.  Here we are.  We actually exist.  Our church is up and running and apart from something dramatic happening, we probably are not going anywhere."  It was like a corner was turned in my brain and a new chapter was beginning.

The next morning everything went dark.  I know depression is hard to describe but that is how I would describe it.  Everything was dark.  I remember sitting at the breakfast table with my family and unable to speak, feeling an utter sense of despair, hopelessness, meaninglessness, stomach in knots, and paralyzing sadness.  Everything seemed completely overwhelming and dark.  There was no trigger that I could put my finger on.  It was simply there for no apparent reason.

After breakfast I went downstairs and took a shower and just cried in the shower.  It was so weird to experience uncontrollable crying for what was seemingly no reason at all.  I probably cried twice between junior high and the birth of my first child.  Since having children tears are much more accessible but this was the first time I had cried for no discernible reason.  That was really scary and awkward for me.

My thoughts:  What is happening to me?  What if I never come out of this mental state?  My wife has way too much on her plate for her to have to carry me emotionally.  She needs me to be strong.  With four small kids I HAVE to be able to function.  I am not able to function right now.

I had to go to work that day and toughed it out.  I came home after work and we had some neighbors over for dinner.  I was able to fake it and having them there helped take my mind off things.  The next day during the afternoon the darkness seemed to lift and things were back to normal.

It was 36 hours of mental hell and then it was gone almost as quick as it landed upon me.  It was jarring and very scary.  I never want to go through that again, though I know I probably will in the future.


Some thoughts since that experience:

1.  Will this ever happen again and happen for a longer period of time?  It is easy to walk in fear after an experience like that.  Mental illness is all over my family tree.  Is there coming a day when I will completely lose it?

2.  Mental illness is scarier than a broken arm because it seems so much harder to control.  I have control issues.

3.  This experience has given me much greater compassion for those who battle in these ways.  Oftentimes they suffer in silence.  There can be great shame heaped upon them from the Christian community because of mental breakdowns or illness.  I don't know where we get the idea that Christians are supposed to be happy and healthy all the time.  It certainly is unbiblical.

4.  Many people suffer in the darkness of depression for years and years.  I need to be thankful that it was only 36 hours.

5.  I am confronted with my own feeble human brokenness (Romans 8:18) and this truth banishes from my mind any thoughts of over confidence in myself.  Certainly this is a blessing.

6.  My hunger and thirst for the day when Jesus makes all things new continues to be more acute in light of my personal brokenness.  This life is but a mist but when you are despairing it can feel like an eternity.   I long for the resolution of the tension in which we live.  It will come.  There will be a happy ending.

I know many of you have experienced similar trials.  Feel free to share your thoughts and reflections.


Resources worth considering:

When the Darkness Will Not Lift: Doing What We Can While We Wait for God--and Joy









Depression: A Stubborn Darkness--Light for the Path









Spiritual Depression: Its Causes and Cure

20 Years Of Depression

Mark Altrogge writes about his wife's twenty year battle with depression.  One section of his post:

Depression and anxiety are complicated.

Physically caused depression and anxiety are different from spiritual depression and fear-based anxiety though sometimes they can overlap, which makes it very difficult to sort out and care for people. In 30 years of pastoring I have known folks who regularly give into unbelief and negative thinking who don’t get clinically depressed, and others who trust God and search their hearts who battle depression.

I can say “God causes all things to work together for good to those who love him” to one woman, and when she is taking her medication she responds in faith, yet when she goes off her medication she hears the same verse and says, “I guess I don’t love God then.”

Medication can be a wonderful mercy from God. In our culture many are too quick to take medicine, but when someone is suffering “the fury of a depression” who wouldn’t desire relief? It is not a sin or unbelief to take medication. We’d never tell someone with diabetes it is a sin to take medicine.

Yet, as an experienced Christian doctor told me, medication should never take the place of sanctification. Even when one takes medication he must continue to do heart work, seek to trust and think right thoughts about God.

Physically depressed/anxious people don’t want to be that way. They are suffering. They are in pain. If Kristi could have escaped it by simply changing her thoughts she would have. In 20 years of battling depression and anxiety, Kristi has consistently examined her heart, sought the Lord, exercised faith, and graciously endured much misunderstanding.

Care for those who suffer with severe depression. Be slow to speak, quick to listen. Pray for them. Be patient with them. Be a friend to them. One person I know went for a walk every day with her depressed neighbor. I hope I can be that kind of friend.

Read the rest.

Talking Openly About Anxiety and Depression

Stephen Altrogge:

I think we need to talk more openly about depression and anxiety in our churches.

Several weeks ago I mentioned in a sermon that I have struggled with anxiety throughout my life. Immediately after my sermon a woman came up to me and asked me to pray for her because she was struggling with anxiety. She said, “I’m glad you mentioned it, because it made me feel like I could come up and ask for prayer.”

Think about it for a second. Millions of people around the world struggle with anxiety, depression, and other mental illnesses, and millions of people within our churches struggle as well. Many women go through a period of strong depression following the birth of a child. Many great Christians of the past have struggled with depression, such as Charles Spurgeon, William Cowper, and David Brainerd.

And yet for some reason, we don’t like to talk about it. It feels weird and uncomfortable. Why is it such a taboo subject? I think that there are a couple reasons.

Read the rest.

Encouragement for Those Wrestling With Personal Darkness

Charles Spurgeon:

The lesson of wisdom is, be not dismayed by soul-trouble. Count it no strange thing, but a part of ordinary ministerial experience. Should the power of depression be more than ordinary, think not that all is over with your usefulness. Cast not away your confidence, for it hath great recompense of reward. Even if the enemy’s foot be on your neck, expect to rise and overthrow him. Cast the burden of the present, along with the sin of the past and the fear of the future, upon the Lord, who forsaketh not his saints. Live by the day—ay, by the hour. Put no trust in frames and feelings. Care more for a grain of faith than a ton of excitement. Trust in God alone, and lean not on the reeds of human help. Be not surprised when friends fail you: it is a failing world. Never count upon immutability in man: inconstancy you may reckon upon without fear of disappointment. The disciples of Jesus forsook him; be not amazed if your adherents wander away to other teachers: as they were not your all when with you, all is not gone from you with their departure. Serve God with all your might while the candle is burning, and then when it goes out for a season, you will have the less to regret. Be content to be nothing, for that is what you are. When your own emptiness is painfully forced upon your consciousness, chide yourself that you ever dreamed of being full, except in the Lord. Set small store by present rewards; be grateful for earnests by the way, but look for the recompensing joy hereafter. Continue, with double earnestness to serve your Lord when no visible result is before you. Any simpleton can follow the narrow path in the light: faith’s rare wisdom enables us to march on in the dark with infallible accuracy, since she places her hand in that of her Great Guide. Between this and heaven there may be rougher weather yet, but it is all provided for by our covenant Head. In nothing let us be turned aside from the path which the divine call has urged us to pursue. Come fair or come foul, the pulpit is our watch-tower, and the ministry our warfare; be it ours, when we cannot see the face of our God, to trust under THE SHADOW OF HIS WINGS.

(HT:  D-Dash)