My critics could say that recently this blog has turned into the Obama Abortion blog, but that's ok, these types of posts will cease in time but this issue is too big of a deal to not post about it.
Again, if you are voting for Obama, please explain this one to me. The senate floor transcript is right there. It's not like this is right wing spin. Forget the rest of the article if you want and just read the transcipt exerpt. If this is not the most backwards thing you have ever read, please give me a good explanation. I just don't know what it could be. I am open to correcting myself here, just provide an explanation.
15 comments:
I appreciate your stance on the abortion issue. I am completely against aboration, too. Why does our vote have to be completely about one issue? When I chose to marry my wife, I wasn't looking for only one quality. If fact, there are several issues that my wife and I disagree about. However, we still have a great marriage and still love and respect each other. George Bush was in office for 8 years. I don't recall that he made a big push to get an abortion amendment passed? Am I incorrect on this? If you voted for Bush and expected him to take on the abortion issue, you must be very disappointed. This only this you got in return was an economy in shables and a president that lied to us just to get us in a war with Iraq. However, I guess that all doesn't matter since he is against abortion. Once again, I will say that I am completely against abortion. However, making that your #1 voting issue is very silly. Look what we have gone in the last 8 years.
Buster,
Thanks for the comment. I have been hearing what you have been saying from various sources these days.
Let me start here... Hypothetically speaking, what if there was a perfect dream presidential candidate out there for you and you completely lock-step agreed with him on every single issues, except for one small one: He believed in a parents right to kill their child within the first year of his/her life. If this was the case, would this issue then become your #1 one voting issue?
I look forward to your response.
z
Vitamin Z,
You never answered my question, "What has Bush done to outlaw abortion in this country?" My point is that politicians promise a lot of things in election years but don't deliver. My point is Bush did NOTHING to end abortion. What makes you think that McCain will be any different?
My next question would be for you. What have you done, besides "talking" on this blog, to end abortion. Do you have an active ministry in your church to educate men and women on this issue? You obviously have a lot of passion on this issue. Are you one of those players that are "In the Game" or are you a person on the sidelines yelling at the players?
You are a great debater, and great debaters are very good at dodging direct questions and attacking the other person with more pointed questions. I will be very happy to answer your questions if you answer mine.
Buster,
Great questions. I would be glad to answer them. I would refer you to this article in terms of why pro-life presidents matter. If that doesn't convince you then we'll have to agreed to disagree. Cool?
http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2008/02/why-prolife-pre.html
But also consider this scenario on a different topic and see if your logic works out. One could have a presidential candidate that was in favor of something horrendous like legalized child porn or perhaps having the right to kill your child before age 1 if you so desire. If that was the case, everyone would know that his views on those issues would never ever pass Congress, but the voting public wouldn't allow him to see the presidential light of day simply because those views are so morally bankrupt. You get my point? We would take a stand for morality in those cases, why not also in the case of abortion?
In terms of your 2nd question, I don't want this to turn into a defense of myself because there is always more to do, but I do post on this blog about it often for the sake of disseminating information, and the other potentially significant thing is that my family and I have started the adoption process. If we are going to stand up again abortion then as Christians we better be ready to adopt kids and love Moms who are in trouble. As a leader in my church I hope my modeling that value will make a difference in people's lives. I'm not sure if that is "enough" in your eyes to not appear hypocritical, but that is what I have going right now. Could I do more? Sure, I don't deny that.
My question for you:
Hypothetically speaking, what if there was a perfect dream presidential candidate out there for you and you completely lock-step agreed with him on every single issues, except for one small one: He believed in a parents right to kill their child within the first year of his/her life. If this was the case, would this issue then become your #1 one voting issue?
Buster,
One more thought... For a person who is oppose to abortion doesn't it make you feel a bit weird voting for president who says that his first order of business is to make abortion rights a #1 priority and in light of his voting record, he probably is very serious about that claim?
You claim that presidents don't matter on abortion (debatable), well we better be very very sure that they can't do jack, cause if they can and Obama is president then that means WAY more babies being murdered. I don't like having my vote contribute to that potential in any way. It's just not worth the risk.
Bro, he is in favor of this:
http://iwka.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/partial-birth_abortion.jpg
Just think about that for a second... Look long and hard at that picture. Your boy voted to support this procedure. Does that not turn your stomach? This is not emotional manipulation is a fact of what happens to babies. Is this not one of the most screwed up things you have ever seen?
I could show you a picture of child porn (which I most certainly won't) and if a president said he was in favor of that you would never vote for him in heartbeat on moral grounds alone (I would hope). His other political issues of genius would not matter for a second. Anyone who is in favor of child porn as a right should be outlawed from the office of president right? Doesn't matter whether he could get bills passed on the hill or not, right? Just having a guy who believed that that stuff should have a right to be consumed and proliferated should be unthinkable right?
So now, you look at the picture of partial birth abortion and don't want to vote for a different candidate on morals grounds alone? You look at that picture and tell me that's in a different moral category than child porn? Seriously?
I know this is not a fun debate, but we have to say it's worth it since there is so much at stake.
Buster,
I offer this as a partial answer to your question about what President Bush (Jr.) has done to roll back legalized abortion: He has worked to appoint pro-life judges to the Supreme Court. As pro-life matters go, this is no small consideration.
With all due respect to Buster, the mental gymnastics that self-identified Christians are putting themselves through to rationalize - yes, rationalize - their overwhelming desire to vote for Obama is staggering.
This isn't an attack on him personally; rather, it's an observation of a social phenomenon.
Buster, where you at?
Vitamin Z,
I am still here. You still never answered my question about Bush and why he hasn't done anything about the abortion issue.
You did answer a couple of my questions so out of respect I will answer yours. First I wanted you to know I didn't look at any of the articles you referenced. Sorry. Anything on the internet can be twisted and spun into what ever you want to protray. You asked me if I could vote for a canidate that would kill my kid within the first year of his or her life. The problem with this question is that I still have the choice and I would never kill my child. You make it sound like Obama wants to kill kids just because he believes in Pro-Choice. This assumption is pretty stupid.
I am excited that you have decided to adopt. I think that is great and honorable thing to do. My wife and I have talked about adoption, too. Having said that, how can you justify that increasing adpotion is going to lower abortion rates? Have you done the research? I really don't think that women who decide to have an abortion are doing so because of the lack of adopting parents. Where is the Church on this issue. I consider myself a strong and active Christian and I am very disappointed in the Church's response to this issue. I do believe that the Church has the best opportunity to fight abortion. You are putting all of your Faith into the Federal Government to solve the abortion issue. I would rather put my Faith into the Church! I do respect that you vote based on this issue. The Congress can't even agree on the simpliest issues let alone solving a major moral issue like abortion. Because of this, I vote based on who can do the best to run this country. The Presidency is a "job" and should be treated like one. I want someone who can turn this economy around, turn the housing crisis around, etc. Also, the belief that Obama's 1st order of business is to promote abortion is pretty imature.
Christopher Lake,
I do agree that Bush has appointed prolife judges, but once again, where has that taken us? Nowhere. Not once in 8 years did I here of Bush standing up against abortion and trying to outlaw it. He was too busy fighting a war in which he lied to the American public which caused more than 4000 American lives to be lost. This is a pretty big moral dilema, too.
Buster,
I would encourage you to check out the links I gave you. This is no spin anymore than you or my opinions or views are spin. The first one deals with what difference a pro-life president can make. You asked the question and I am providing the evidence. Check it out.
The other link is just a picture (a drawing actually) of partial birth abortion. You really need to look at the procedure that your boy Obama is very much in favor of.
In terms of my question... I think you are misunderstanding it. Here is the question again: Would you ever vote for a president that was in favor of a person's right to kill their newborn within the first two weeks of it's life? This is just saying it another way. This is hypothetical to be sure but just think about it.
Would you ever vote for a presidential candidate that held this view (that you have a right to kill your baby after it's born as long as it's before 14 days old)? Just a simple yes or no will do. That is the question. Let me know if that is unclear.
Again, go back and look at the picture and then click on this link. It's from my blog:
http://takeyourvitaminz.blogspot.com/2008/05/just-make-informed-decision-this.html
Also, if you think my assertion that Obama has a #1 agenda then you need to click on this link:
http://theologica.blogspot.com/2008/08/obama-and-freedom-of-choice-act.html
But if you just answer my question above that will suffice.
z
Vitamin Z,
The difference a pro-life president "Can Make" -vs- what they "Will Make" is very clear. I am going to ask my question to you for the 4th time. What has Bush done in the last 8 years to end abortion? Was your vote worth it?
To answer your question. . . You are trapping me into a "No" answer. The problem is that I am Pro-Life, too. The difference is between us is that I don't vote on the single issue. If you do, that is perfectly fine and I don't think you are wrong. I do wish that abortion was illegal but I know that won't happen. Tell me the last president that tried to make abortion illegal. Remember one thing . . . . . Jesus is not a Democrat or Republican. He was smart enough not to get into politics.
No pictures, links, or websites is going to change my vote. Our country cannot go another 4-8 years of this current policy. Our country is in the dumps and we need a change. McCain is going to nothing to turn this economy around. This is my opinion.
I hope you understand that we are on the same side when it comes to pro-life. The only difference is how we choose to vote.
Buster,
Not trapping you into anything... So you would say "No", is that right?
z
Since I assume that is right (never voting for a pro-infanticide president), from your perspective, then please explain this to me:
Pro-infanticide president = never get my vote, but...
Pro-abortion president = will get my vote.
Thus, unless you are willing to admit your inconsistency, you are obligated to explain the difference between infanticide and abortion. What do you think the difference is?
This is not about whether Bush did anything about abortion or not. That is another topic for another day. Saying, "What has Bush done?" has nothing to do with my question.
Basically my position is that there is zero difference between abortion and infanticide, so I am just trying to follow that logic out to it's inevitable conclusion.
For example, an openly racist president would never get my vote, no matter what (I assume you would agree?). A president that is in favor of a person's right to kill their newborn would never get my vote no matter what (Again, I assume you would agree). Since there is no essential ontological difference between a newborn and a say, 5 month old in the womb, then logically I can't vote for Obama (a guy who would fight hard to allow a mother to let a doctor suck it's brains out. That's not inflammatory rhetoric, it's fact), no matter what. I don't want to be inconsistent. Maybe you can help me. What is the difference? I'm sure you must see one since you don't want to be inconsistent with your voting.
Can you help me here? What is the difference between abortion and infanticide? Seems like we keep going round and round on this question. If you have an honest answer I am open to changing my views. I just have not heard anyone willing to engage that question yet. It always gets pushed off and avoided. That fact alone might tell us something about this issue.
I know it's not fun, but HAS to get addressed.
z
Vitamin Z,
I respected you enough to answer your questions. You obviously don't want to answer mine. That's too bad.
In order to answer your question, I need to know your definition of "Infanticide."
Let me ask you another question (which you will probably dodge away from). Russia is a Hot Topic lately. . . . Would you vote for a President that would send our troops to war with Russia based on a lie that they had WMDs and which would cause thousands of lives to be lost on both sides?
I am sick of tired of Christians sitting on the sideline waiting for our government to solve their problems. We as the Church needs to wake up and make things happen. Have you reached out to women who already have had an abortion? This would be a great ministry. Think about it. What if you could reach these women and love on them and help them heal emotionally and spiritually. These women would be the best spokespeople to go out and talk to women accross the country about Pro-Life. Do you really think talking on a blog is going to solve this problem.
One last comment. . . I am pretty close to ending this conversation because of your lack of respect for my position. You won't answer my "Bush" question because you know that Bush's term was a total disaster.
Bottomline - The Federal Government is NOT going to solve this problem. We as the Church needs to tackle this problem. Why have we not done so yet. I believe it is because we are scared to fail. It is too easy to put all the responsibility on the govrnement because then we can put all the blame on them for this problem.
Buster,
Don't want you to feel disrespected at all. That is not my intention. Blogs are not good places for conversation, but we'll have to do our best.
Again, in terms of Bush, we can talk about that later, it really has nothing to do with my point. And to be honest I don't know much about politics. I don't watch the news, I don't listen to Rush, I don't read the Wall Street Journal, etc. I am just trying to point out a gross inconsistency:
Pro-infanticide president = never get my vote, but...
Pro-abortion president = will get my vote.
Definition of infanticide - infanticide |inˈfantiˌsīd|
noun
1 the crime of a mother killing her child within a year of birth.
• the practice in some societies of killing unwanted children soon after birth.
2 a person who kills an infant, esp. their own child.
That is good enough for me.
So, can start here?
z
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