I strongly disagree with today’s Supreme Court ruling, which dramatically departs from previous precedents safeguarding the health of pregnant women. As Justice Ginsburg emphasized in her dissenting opinion, this ruling signals an alarming willingness on the part of the conservative majority to disregard its prior rulings respecting a woman’s medical concerns and the very personal decisions between a doctor and patient. I am extremely concerned that this ruling will embolden state legislatures to enact further measures to restrict a woman's right to choose, and that the conservative Supreme Court justices will look for other opportunities to erode Roe v. Wade, which is established federal law and a matter of equal rights for women.
In what parallel universe do people (shockingly, Christian people as well) look at this procedure that Obama supported over and over again and say to themselves, "Yes! I am voting for Obama!" I honestly don't give a rip about McCain becoming president. He may or may not do a good job, but anyone who supports the above process IS MORALLY DISQUALIFIED NO MATTER WHAT, RIGHT? If you don't believe the above picture is accurate or "propaganda" then walk down to your local Planned Parenthood and ask them to describe it for you.David Freddoso adds some commentary as well:
For Barak Obama, women cannot be equal under the law without partial-birth abortion. Full human rights are not possible without partial-birth abortion.Seriously friends, your voting choice very simple to figure out. Politics is very complex, but in light of the evidence against Barak Obama things become very clear on who you should vote for.
43 comments:
Can we look at that drawing, with its caption, without revulsion? And I don't want to hear about how we're all sinners and we're all guilty and no one can claim the moral high ground, etc. That is true, disturbingly true. But it is not the point. When a child is murdered, that child's spirit does not rise up and say to the abortionist, "Well, we all share the same Adamic nature. I guess that evens everything out." No, the voice of his blood cries from the ground -- and God hears.
Thanks, Zach. I didn't want to see this today. But thank you.
Disgusting. Horrifying. Barbaric. Though he has had *many* faults as a President (and I say that as one who voted for him twice), President Bush, Jr. did appoint two pro-life judges to the Supreme Court, which resulted in this unspeakable practice finally being outlawed. I thank God for at least that move on Bush's part.
For some personally gained thoughts on abortion (you will know what I mean when you read them), as it relates to mentally disabled people, see my comments below the post on Obama and the Harvard Law Review.
Sick! I still don't understand how someone can think that these are not babies that are being killed. And how a person could perform the procedure in good conscience. Do these murderers also deliver live babies?
It IS sick and disgusting...sin plain and simple.
Unfortunately, a vote for McCain or Obama won't do anything to make abortion illegal or more prevalent.
Cudos! George Bush for preventing less than 1% of all abortions. Yeah! Boooooo, Bushy, for causing thousands more deaths and mutilations (our soldiers, their soldiers and their civilians) in Iraq.
So, people, since it won't matter to abortion, pray about your vote and vote the way God would have you to. Remember, a vote for John McCain is STILL a vote for rape, incest, and mother's health abortion! Don't sweep that under the rug. A vote for either will NOT outlaw abortion. It sucks but that's the truth.
How about not voting? How about just being on our knees for a desperately wicked country and world? How about 'Come quickly, Lord Jesus'? What if the christians stopped voting and started taking action by praying and really studying God's word and getting the gospel out?
Ever heard of 'if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.'? I don't believe it reads "if my people, who are called by my name will get behind a candidate they really believe in, and follow that cause, and vote him in, God will make every bad thing go away and everything will be holy".
Amy,
My conscience can't handle not voting. So I guess McCain is my man. Here is the deal and don't disregard this. Bush appointed supreme court judges that help pass a ban on the procedure in the picture. What beyond that would you have him do? A vote for Obama gets judges who love abortion rights. A vote for McCain probably won't. You will to take that risk.
But all that aside, don't you get my argument about a president being morally disqualified right out of the gate? Why does that not persuade you?
You present a false dichotomy with your presentation of the verse at the end. It's not an either or thing. I have zero hope in politics to really do much of anything, but we still have to have laws that protect the weak and defenseless. Will McCain do this? Perhaps not, but I would much much rather put my money on him in light of BO's history with abortion on demand. Sick. He is morally disqualified just like if he was in favor of legal stealing, legal slavery, or legal child abuse.
z
You know, the bible says that God "hates" divorce, and yet it's legal and every one does it. God doesn't just say please don't divorce, the bible says he HATES it. So why aren't we out trying to legislate that sin? Why don't churches preach more about staying in your marriage? Yeah, you say that murder is the most revolting sin, but God doesn't say that in the bible. It's sin alright, but not in it's own 'horrible' category. And why aren't christians more mad about unjust war? Darfur? North Korea? Hurricane relief? Tsunami relief? We've picked this ONE sin, to be our voting banner and I just don't get it.
I care about it. My own nephew was saved from being aborted because my christian sister in law talked his mother out of it. I have another niece or nephew about to be born into abuse and abject poverty with no health care to an uneducated (no school past age 11)mother. I would certainly try to talk someone out of an abortion. But I'm more concerned about where their soul will go when they die.
Amy,
You are FAST in the comment section. Impressive.
Not sure about the divorce thing. I'll have to think about that some more, but that doesn't contribute to the question of whether we should ban abortions or not.
In terms of the war... I would say that issue is far more complex and we'll never know all the reason why we are over there. We simply don't have all the information. The war is in a different category than knowing that it is seriously unwise to vote for a president that believes in the full right to do the picture that I posted. Unreal. Sick.
What about the question(s) I asked you?
z
Going to the BarlowGirl concert, will discuss a little later.
correct that spelling for all of us
Baraks out there!
THOU SHALL NOT MURDER - Pretty good category for me . Protecting the unborn is a starting point for determining the moral compass of a politician. Thanks Zach for speaking up for those who have no voice.
Amy,
As for why Christians aren't out "legislating" about marriage and divorce, people have the legal right to stay married or not. Yes, God hates it, and Christians should fight *much* harder for their marriages, in most cases, I think (it's hard to talk about individual cases of divorce, when we're speaking abstractly here), but divorce is not something that can be outlawed in the U.S., unless we want to have a theocracy (and I don't).
However, murder is *already* illegal in the U.S. Abortion *is* murder. A man who shoots and kills a pregnant woman and her unborn child can be tried for double homicide, but if a woman decides to abort her unborn child? Well, that's her "choice." The logic is twisted, and Christians have a moral obligation to work to overturn laws which use such twisted logic in the service of murder.
As for genocide in Darfur and hurricane relief, Christians have been, and are, on the front lines of these issues. President Bush spoke out about the killing in Darfur at the urging of evangelical Christians. Christians are always there to help in hurricane and tsunami relief efforts. As for "unjust wars," I assume that you're referring mainly to the Iraq war, and while more Christians have opposed the war, as it has continued, many Christians simply don't believe that the war in Iraq *is* unjust. Should they oppose a war that they honestly, before God, believe is just?
It seems, in some ways, that you are painting a caricature of politically active evangelical Christians who lean to the right, by saying that they are *only* concerned about abortion. Amy, this simply isn't true. For over two years, I was a member of Capitol Hill Baptist Church, a theologically conservative Reformed church approximately ten minutes from the nation's capitol. The congregation was very involved in justice issues, from individuals working to end sexual slavery (through International Justice Mission), to the church helping to support a Christian homeless shelter, to a Christian lawyer working to help the environment, to yes, people working to have abortion outlawed. You simply can't legitimately say that right-leaning Christians are only concerned about having abortion outlawed. I have seen evidence first-hand that tells a different story.
Should more evangelical Christians be more concerned about a wider variety of issues? Of course; there is always room for improvement. However, that fact does not mean that we should *stop* working to outlaw the barbaric practice of abortion (and part of that work is *voting* for politicians who will work to protect unborn lives, as Barack Obama defintely will *not* do).
This is a great post, Z - you're on fire!!
Keep it coming and talk to everybody you can down in NM - a key battleground state that BO is ahead in right now.
Amy ... I don't know you and I'm not trying to be too combative, but was America wrong kill thousands of German soldiers in order to remove Hitler from power so that the slaughter of 6 million Jews would finally come to an end?
Darfur ... the only way to stop the genocide over there is to go in and kill some bad guys ... do you advocate that?
What I'm getting at is that this stuff is very, very complex. Godly, Christ-following people can disagree on just war/unjust war - and we can us different portions of Scripture to argue each side.
So, while we may have a hard time coming to consensus about those more complex topics, let's go the right way on an issue that is crystal clear ... and partial birth abortion is crystal clear.
I couldn't have said it better than Z - Obama is morally disqualified for not being able to get this very simple issue right.
And as if that's not bad enough, he even opposes forcing hospitals to give medical care to babies born alive after botched abortions didn't kill them first.
Obama is seriously morally deficient ... to a degree we have not yet seen in an American president ever.
Amy is a liberal who hates Bush and wants to vote for Obama. Don't fall for it, people.
"Amy is a liberal who hates Bush and wants to vote for Obama. Don't fall for it, people."
How evil of her...not a liberal. We only want people who agree with us to post here.
This is an honest question:
Do any of us personally know Amy? I have recently read accounts of Obama staffers being trained to start these types of conversations on Christian blogs. An Obamaton will come in to the conversation with "I'm a Christian, but we can't vote for McCain..." It's part of the Obama campaign's coordinated outreach to Evangelicals.
My reading of Amy's posts leads me to believe that she's probably a real person, but I have to ask.
Either way, Sife's right.
dp-
I think you misunderstand the intent of Sife's post. Amy said some pretty nasty stuff in some prior threads about Republicans. She's now once again trying to play the part of the non-partisan, critical thinker.
Yes, Amy is a real person. She is a friend of mine at church. Amy you don't work for Obama do you?
:)
Not to be judgemental, but I think Amy has issues. I agree with sife and hags. I plainly cannot vote for a man that thinks partial birth aborations should be legal. That's the bottom line. Have you ever read some of quotes in his books? He, in himself, is racist. And, just to add a little humor, I can't vote for him because Oprah backs him.
"Not to be judgemental, but I think Amy has issues."
Uh, that's very judgemental.
that's a hilarious thing to suggest that I might be a covert Obama political supporter starting convos on blogs. i'm a stay at home mom, photographer in Albuquerque. funny.
i'm also not a liberal...i'm an independant. i just like having discourse on these issues. i'm also disenchanted with the bush presidency.
the only time i really get mad here is when people start accusing me of being evil or a liberal who's just buying into the rhetoric. it's not true.
mtr: I do think that the US was right, although very late, to act against nazi germany. I just see the iraq war as being a war about oil, the bush vendetta, and deceiving the general public about why we went there. i'm not of the school of 'all war is bad'.
zach, i guess i don't buy the 'disqualification right out of the gate' thing because i personally don't believe the Obama, or many other politicians would choose abortion for themselves. i think they're wrong in allowing it and supporing a choice, but they're not the exact perpetrator, so i consider it a bit of a stretch to say that the democrats love abortion. of course, there are probably some radicals (population control people, for example) who really love abortion, but for the most part, i believe that most people want less unplanned pregnancies and less abortion.
i really feel that sarah palin is totally unprepared to be president or vice president. and though zach said he doesn't even care about or know much about john mccain, we need to. it's important. nothing could be more important than knowing who you advocate to be the leader of the free world.
i really don't know what we expected g. bush to do about abortion and that's my point. at this time in history, very little can be done. i believe the most we can do is "go therefore in to all the world preaching the gospel" and working with the Holy Spirit to change HEARTS, not laws. I WISH the law could be changed, but can it? Not sure. That's why I have questions.
So, those of you who think it's a sin and i'm evil to even think about not voting republican, i'm sorry. These are weighty questions in an evil world. I'm not a mindless democratic follower believing every word that comes from Obama's mouth. It's just not true. I still don't know if I will vote.
Amy,
The "disqualification right out of the gate" issue doesn't really have to do with whether Obama, or other pro-choice (choice to murder) Democrats, would choose abortion "for themselves." It has everything to do with them wanting the murder of unborn children to continue to be a legal choice in the U.S., period.
The act of "not voting Republican" is not a sin, in and of itself. Jesus is owned by *no* political party. His KIngdom is not of this world. However, we are to have Kingdom priorities, as His followers, *in* this world. Do the Republicans always have those priorities? Of course not. On the deadly serious issue of the legal murder of unborn children though, the Republican Party is in line with Biblical priorities (unlike the Democratic Party in their very platform)-- and as I said in a comment above, it is a caricature of right-leaning Christians to say that they *only* care about outlawing abortion. If you missed my account of the congregation at my former church being involved in "social justice" issues (of which the pro-life cause is one), please read it. Politically conservative Christians are *not* a monolith.
this is all fine and well, but for the love of God at least spell his name right
About working to change hearts or laws, why not "both/and," instead of "either/or?" The law can be changed, but it will be a process. Because of Bush Jr.'s presidency (which has has many faults), partial-birth abortion is now illegal in America. Change *can* and *does* happen through the legal system in America.
Did William Wilberforce wait to campaign for the end of slavery in England and in the meantime, devote himself totally to praying for "changed hearts"? Prayer is obviously crucial in the process of hearts being changed, but I thank God that Wilberforce did *not* wait until hearts were changed to openly campaign for the end of slavery. Do we wait until God changes hearts to share the Gospel? Hopefully not! We must share the Gospel *and* trust God to change hearts to be willing to receive it.
"I just see the iraq war as being a war about oil, the bush vendetta, and deceiving the general public about why we went there."
- If any of you missed this, I just wanted to highlight it again.
DP, you make think my statement was judgemental, but it was more of an observation of her ranting. Her statements lead me to believe that she feels that her not voting will help things be better. Maybe she voted for Bush and has become ashamed of it, so now by not voting she won't risk the chance of her canidate winning and becoming very unpopular.
I really like how Amy came out of left field with her thoughts about Sarah Palin. What do you think about Obama's qualifications? Unfortunately, no one will agree with any of the canidates on everything. So, I vote for the one that I agree with the most in turn voting to keep the one that can do the most damage out of the most powerful position in world.
left field on Sarah Palin? Do your homework on her. There's not much to find out. she's not smart enough to be president; and neither is John McCain. Do you want some one leading this country who doesn't even know how to send an email?
Amy,
You said: "zach, i guess i don't buy the 'disqualification right out of the gate' thing because i personally don't believe the Obama, or many other politicians would choose abortion for themselves. i think they're wrong in allowing it and supporing a choice, but they're not the exact perpetrator, so i consider it a bit of a stretch to say that the democrats love abortion"
Let say the issue was slavery. Would your logic work out? If a candidate said, "I hate slavery and would never do it myself, but I think it should be legal", if all thing were equal would you vote for them still? Or how about child porn. What if a candidate said, "I HATE child porn and would never engage in it myself, but I think it should be legal for those of you who do love it" Would you vote for that candidate? Of course you wouldn't. We are both thankful that we have laws against those horrific things.
I can't buy your line of reasoning Amy, it just simply does not make sense. I think if you were honest with yourself you would have to admit it doesn't make sense, but I understand that emotionally it's very hard for you to vote for McCain. I understand that. But this really has nothing to do with McCain and has everything to do with BO who is completely morally disqualified.
You admitted that picture I posted was sick. So why in the world would you put yourself on the same team with a guy who supports it whole-heartedly? You would never do that if the issue was child porn, or slavery of black people, or anything else like that.
Think about it.
z
i know i'm in the minority here, and maybe i should just stop posting because you guys just want to have a discussion with those who agree with each other. on the other hand, don't you all want some one smart for our next president???? someone who knows about foreign policy and is reasonably knowledgeable about what's going on in the world to lead us into or out of war????? doesn't that matter at all?? I mean, sure, mccain was captured by the viet-cong (sp?) and tortured, but he doesn't even know that Spain is not in south america???? He can't send an email or use a blackberry? Sarah Palin doesn't know what the 'bush doctrine' is? She's been governor of a state of 600,000 people? That's less than the whole city of albuquerque! She doesn't even know what her 17 year old daughter is doing with her boyfriend! Are these people, with an anti-abortion stance, ready to lead the free world???? Does this matter to us? It very well should!
i know what you're saying, Zach, about slavery, abortion, etc. disqualifying Obama to be president. Our country is not just a function of how we operate on abortion. Of course i think it's heinous that we allow abortion, but we are about so much more than that. More matters. People are suffering in America because of more than just abortion.
Amy,
In the Bible, foolishness is not merely a matter of intellect. It is a moral (or rather, an *amoral*) quality. You write that Sarah Palin is not "smart" enough to be President, and neither is John McCain. Sarah Palin has governmental experience at the executive level (which Barack Obama lacks), and one does not gain such experience without genuine intelligence. John McCain has served the people of America well for decades in the Senate, and he has stood up to, and stood against people in his own party. Whatever one thinks about the Iraq war, McCain has both intelligence and principles. The fact that he is not currently very computer-savvy is of comparably little consequence. (He can't type for long periods of time, due to injuries sustained as a POW.)
As I wrote above though, in the Bible, foolishness is a matter of morality, not intellect alone. Barack Obama supports the *absolutely unrestricted* "right" to abortion (murder of unborn human persons), and he also supports the "right" to infanticide (murder of born human persons). Whether he is "smarter" than McCain or Palin is a matter of debate-- but by the Bible's idea of "foolishness," his position on the importance of unborn human lives is that of a fool.
Amy,
You have been respectful, for the most part (except for calling John McCain an "an idiot George Bush clone" and Sarah Palin a "moron hockey mom"), in these discussions.
However, when you criticize Sarah Palin (and by implication, impugn her suitability for public office) because her daughter chose to engage in sin, you hit below the belt.
Amy,
So I assume then you would be willing to hypothetically vote for a candidate who was for the legalization of child porn or slavery of black people, because "there is so much more than that"?
z
Wow, Amy! You were out of left field with any statement about Sarah Palin. I was pointing out scenarios in which you may not vote. The content of your statement about Sarah Palin wasn't out of left field because all the Obama lovers are making it. Your statement in general was. No one had even mention her until you did. So, mentioning her qualifications for VP had nothing to do with the discussion that has been taking place.
that's true. but i did it to point that you all are willing to vote for someone who may or may not be qualified to lead. a lot of people here say they don't give a rip about the republicans except that they're pro-life. i don't think mccain/palin are good leaders.
i didn't vote for bush.
i wonder what is being said that someone has to remove some of their posts. must have been bad.
Amy,
So I assume then you would be willing to hypothetically vote for a candidate who was for the legalization of child porn or slavery of black people, because "there is so much more than that"?
I was the one who removed my comment. I just wanted to reword somethings instead, that is all.
z
Zach,
As much as I try to look away whenever I see or hear anything about the gruesome act of Partial Birth abortion, I'm glad you brought this up.
This procedure is truly sickening and even the American Medical Association has denounced that is never medically neccessary. How is it that we treat young human life with such disregard? Barack Obama (and other radical pro-choicers who support PBA) must really believe this is not a human being. Otherwise I cannot understand how they can support this.
I agree with you, Zach, I could never support a candidate that endorsed and fought for this type of abortion. I am glad to see you taking a stand here and on other blogs for life.
So, wow, this post blew up didn't it! Good conversation!
Amy, regarding your assertion that Bush deceived the world and went into Iraq for oil and a personal vendetta against Saddam ... whether you're independent or not, you're parroting the left's talking points on this.
The left cannot have it both ways, namely that Bush:
A) is a bumbling idiot who doesn't have the mental capacity to be president and who can't string a set of sentences together without revealing how big of an idiot he is.
AND
B) was able to convince Congress and the Senate to OVERWHELMINGLY support the WMD theory and hence the Iraq war ... not to mention his ability to manipulate international intelligence and create a consensus around the world that something should be done to Saddam.
In short, Bush cannot be retarded and brilliant at the same time!
This sort of elementary level mental inconsistency drives me crazy ... and the philosophies of the left are full of such folly!
Amy, you may be dis-enchanted with the Bush presidency, but please don't rely on tired, old, worn-out talking points that don't hold any water to frame an argument for said dis-enchantment.
(By the way, I'm sure you're a nice gal, so please don't misinterpret my passion for this point as a personal attack against you ...)
Now, where were we ...
Oh yeah ... Sarah Palin!
Not qualified?!?!?!
I've been assuming that you're a Christian, Amy, with some semblance of a Biblical Worldview. Maybe not, and if not, that's fine ... I can still respect you.
HOWEVER ... let me ask a few questions?
How qualified was David to kill Goliath?
How qualified was Mary to give birth to the Savior of the world?
How qualified were any of the disciples to launch Christianity?
The answers? He wasn't, she wasn't and they weren't. But their faith was placed on the right object, and with some obvious exceptions, their convictions were consistent with absolute truth.
I'm not saying experience has no value ... obviously it does. But from a Christian perspective convictions and worldview trump experience every single time! I'll take David over the Israelite Army 100 times out of 100!
And to suggest Palin doesn't have experience in the first place is ridiculous! PUH-LEASE!! Who, on the Pres/VP ticket on either side is more experienced in an executive capacity?
The stuff you're throwing out here is so off-base that I'm wondering if you aren't just doing it to get a rise out of us!
Palin doesn't know what the "Bush doctrine" is? That's because there is no THE Bush doctrine ... there are at least four different ideologies that have been labeled the Bush doctrine over the past 7 years.
Her question was right on the money: "What are you referring to, Charlie?"
Actually Gibson's assumption that there is only one "Bush doctrine" was the most ignorant part of that interview.
Come on, Amy, if you're a friend of Zach's, you've gotta be sharper than this.
As a final comment before I let my blood pressure go back down and get to bed, if there's anyone on here who hasn't gone through "The Truth Project", do it!!
www.TheTruthProject.org
All of this discussion about politics actually has its roots in each of our worldviews. The Truth Project does a pretty good job of laying out a comprehensive, introductory biblical worldview. I think it's a must for every Christian ... kinda like Z's blog!
:)
Good bye everyone, i will not be posting here any more. it's not productive. Let all of your blood pressures go down.
For the record, I am deeply comitted to serving the Lord and seeking His will. Believe it or not. My world view is that we are in it but not of it. MY blood pressure is up (and I have a raging headache) this morning because of the mounting financial crisis facing our world after this weekend's dealings. Abortion is, frankly, the last thing on my mind.
So these are my priorities in life:
1. Serving and worshipping the Lord
and seeking His will
2. Raising Godly children in a mess of the world
3. Being a Godly wife
Not trying to get a rise out of anyone. Not an Obama operative. Not pro-choice. I'm just a person struggling for truth and trying to know what God's will is for this country. I'm also still praying about who to vote for and asking God to put who HE would into office.
Hope everyone gets to keep their house. God bless you.
Bye.
What's more important-- houses, or the lives of unborn children and children who have survived abortions, but who under an Obama administration, might be left to die? Oh well, Amy is gone from this thread. God bless you too, Amy. Thank you for the discussion.
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