"Abortion will NEVER be outlawed. We've had Bush for 8 years and abortions have not been outlawed. Not to mention the unjust war he has taken us into under false pretenses."Even if all the reasons I just quoted in favor of Obama were true (they are not), would not the moral outrage of what is presented in the youtube clip below simply disqualify a candidate outright no matter what? We would not give the time of day to any candidate if he believed in the reinstitution of slavery of black people. He could be the greatest political genius ever, but he would be disqualified on that one moral issue alone.
"Once again, I will say that I am completely against abortion. However, making that your #1 voting issue is very silly. Look what we have gone in the last 8 years."
"What has Bush done to outlaw abortion in this country? My point is that politicians promise a lot of things in election years but don't deliver. My point is Bush did NOTHING to end abortion. What makes you think that McCain will be any different?"
"I do wish that abortion was illegal but I know that won't happen."
"Roe vs Wade will never be overturned, so my voting for Obama has nothing to do with abortion"
"Pro-life presidents don't matter."
"Just because I vote for Obama doesn't mean I support everything he stands for."
"You can't be an one-issue voter, there are many other issues involved"
"They are pro giving people a choice. I know that seems like a fine line, but no one wants more abortions...see Bill Clinton's quote about "no one wants more abortions". No one is like "yeah, we get to kill more babies"! I still don't like the "pro choice" view, believe me."
"Any Christian who solely bases whom to vote for based on ONE ISSUE ONLY is acting irresponsibly in my opinion."
In light of the youtube evidence below, should it not be the same with Obama? If you can't get this one right you are disqualified right out of the gate. If you say that you don't know what "it" is (I wonder if he felt that way when his wife was pregnant?), you don't err on the side of death. No questioning, no argumentation, no listening. We don't protect the right to leave children out to die. Ever. He has disqualified himself on this moral issue alone.
I have to give Obama credit though. At least he is the rare one on either side of the aisle to think through the logical implication of abortion and support it: Abortion = infanticide. If we can kill it in the womb, why not kill it out of the womb? There is no fundenmental, ontological diffence between abortion and infanticide. At least Obama is horrifically consistent. I'll give him credit for that .
One of the reasons why we don't object to abortion on a mass level in society is because it's private. If it's not wrong and should be a full legal right then why don't we see it on youtube or the surgery channel on cable? Don't tell me it's because some people might be offended by it. There are things on cable TV or youtube that are extremely offensive to most people and the response is always, "just turn the channel then." (Ever heard of Howard Stern?) The reason why we don't see it and it remains private is because most of us deep down know it's wrong and should be outlawed but we worship our autonomy and freedom at the expense of justice for the weak. Suppress the truth, see Romans chapter 1.
This clip makes it more clear and less PRIVATE. It's disturbing. Not in the sense that you watch an abortion, but what Obama clearly supported is SEEN (not private) for what it really is. Again, it's disturbing, but should we not all the more watch it and not bury our head in the sand when it is about the primary leadership of our country?
Christians, watch this video. If you can still vote for Obama after this and are not morally outraged to the same degree as slavery, rape, or child abuse then there is probably nothing more I can do for you. I'll shut up about it.
Lord Jesus come quickly.
(P.S. - You could say this post contradicts what I posted two posts below from Michael Horton and culture wars. I don't think it does. This is raw justice and God commands us to stand up for it over and over again in the Bible. As Christians, do we not appeal to people to stop murdering each other? Certainly there is more to say about how the gospel interacts with culture, but I don't think we have to wait until someone becomes a Christian to ask them to not have an abortion.)
52 comments:
I totally agree...all the conversations I've been listening to keep hammering the fact that poverty is an equal moral issue and they don't see how abortion should dominate my vote.
Take this quote.."killing 4 million unborn over 30 years, or killing millions through passive use of resources, health care, and war? It's easy to point to abortion, because its so obvious. But to say its worse than our moral responsibility to care for those who are living in poverty is ridiculous. Just as you say you can't imagine how a Christian can vote for someone with a pro-choice stance, I ask how you could vote for someone who doesn't support a basic universal health care system."
How do you deal with person who "sees the horribleness of abortion" and yet that doesn't seem to be enough?
I just don't know what to say to people like that without being seen as a horrible person who doesn't care for the poor, like Jesus.
Ageed Z - Obama is a barbarian in a suit. If a man can't stand up for the unborn child, he is automatically disqualified no matter what political party he represents. Most other issues are debateable policy issues that are not life and death. When to go to war has pros and cons, depending on the facts.The unborn can't defend themselves and they don't vote. That puts them in twice the danger. If we can't take a stand on as basic an issue as this we might as well pack it up !
Obama-supporting Christians need to understand this decision. On one hand, they have Obama's liberal economic policies, which are attractive to many and his promise to leave Iraq (the authenticity of which is debatable) also sounds nice. These are legitimate issues, and authentic Christians can certainly disagree. If these policies appeal to you, that is fine, and I honor your right to advance that cause.
On the other hand, we are faced with the willful destruction of human life. Our society calls that murder.
To many, it sounds narrow-minded to be a "one issue voter", but in this case, it's perfectly justified. This "one issue" is simply that important. Regardless of however attractive of a candidate Obama may be, this single issue should disqualify him from receiving any support whatsoever from God fearing Christians.
Barack Obama supports the willful killing of babies. Is his promise to pay for your college more important?
Unfortunately, this is unlikely to convince anyone who has already decided to vote for Obama.
That group is so starstruck by a man who has manipulated their emotions for one goal (his attainment of political power) that they ceased genuinely considering what they're doing long ago.
With the choice of Gov. Palin, there is one choice in this election. You are either on the side of good, or on the side of practitioners of infanticide.
My guess is that the moral hoops (rationalization) that they had to jump through in order to justify this decision some time ago (back when he was an unassaultable rock star candidate) also allows them to simply refuse to reconsider this vote now, and hope that they're never held accountable for it.
Blacks were enslaved because they were considered "less than human."
Hitler killed Jews, calling them "less than human."
We kill the unborn... because they are "less than human"...
One issue disqualifies a candidate for me.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the person who chooses not to vote, at all, because of the bad candidates on both sides? Should we vote for the "lesser of two" you know whats? Or is a vote for a strong moral, marginal non-major party candidate in order? Does God require your vote for someone? I honestly didn't know who to vote for in the last election...morally, so I didn't vote at all. I was told that was a sin. Thoughts?
OK - please understand I'm undecided between the Obama and McCain and have never made any choice with regards to republican or democrat. That said . . .
The video is certainly propaganda like and manipulative in it's strong imagery and language. I think it's a bit extreme what the nurses alleges and describes and how she describes it. I especially don't care for the end with the baby left out on the table and the nurses walking out of the room and how that's portrayed and manipulative with what is a very false image. I don't believe it happens that way. If you believe that visual, you're kinda being suckered in I think.
I think as Christians, we had better sure check our facts and make sure before we post stuff like this and preach from it. I'm not saying it's NOT true. I'm just saying I have a lot of questions I'd want to be CERTAIN I know before I go lambasting a fellow man with a wife and two daughters.
I really want to question the video and the facts behind it. Do we know for certain they're all true? Do we know the facts behind the nurses allegations? Do we know Obama's side? (would you post anything that gave his side of this story? If I found it or anyone else can find?) Do we know WHY Obama voted against what she alleges? Quite often there are good reasons. Some laws make a bad situation already worse, or by creating the law, others profit at great expense. I'm not saying killing babies is acceptable under any circumstance. But there may have been issues with the law that were not acceptable to him for very legitimate reasons that you and I would both agree with. I really doubt if you went to Obama and presented this video to him and the idea that it alleges, he would tell you that "Yep, that's right! I'm all for leaving living babies out to die on tables and walking out of the room. So is my wife! We just LOVE killing them babies!" I really don't think the guy is a monster or a barbarian for crying out loud. I just think there's another side of this story that's not being presented here, and some major emotional distortion/manipulation going on with a video like this that Christians too often swallow hook line and sinker. Just like the dozens of emails floating around sent by unknowing Christians who don't check the facts before they send them. (don't get me started on that one - like the one that has the black columnist endorsing John McCain and blasting Obama, that was totally a fraud - check out (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/t/thomas-sowell.htm) Yet I continue to receive it from well meaning Christians.
Anyway - I will continue to research this in my spare time to see just what is up with these allegations. They are concerning if found to be 100% true. But I'd just warn be careful with what we're posting and preaching if we don't know all the facts about a person yet for Obama, for McCain, and for Palin.
John Carlson
And for Biden of course!
In some short personal research, this appears to be the most unbiased/unpartisan coverage of this issue if this helps.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html
Again, I'm not sticking up for Obama or dicing McCain. Just trying to make the most educated discernment without relying on emotional tugging partisan propaganda videos!
Politics are always something I've hated for the very reason of finding it so hard to determine the true facts and cut through all of the BS from either side. Thus I've never even voted, mostly out of protest so to speak for the whole wacked process. But I'm bound and determined to figure out the truth and best choice this time. But if we rely on propaganda from either side, or supportive orgs, what not, we might as well just buy a Chevrolet because a Chevrolet commercial told me it was the best car to buy.
- J
John, I appreciate your effort to try and find some real facts in this matter, but I think you're trying to make the pursuit of truth a bit more difficult than it needs to be.
The most easy route would be to simply accept that Barack Obama is pro-choice, and supports abortion rights for most of the genstational term. The Obama campaign would readily admit this.
John McCain has a solid pro-life record. Again, this is easily verifiable.
Secondly, Barack Obama did in fact vote against and speak out against the Born Alive Protection Act. Again, this is easily verifiable. The Obama campaign would also add that he did so because he didn't like the language in the bill (or something similar), but the fact of the vote remains.
To make a long story short: Obama is admittedly pro-choice and McCain has a pro-life track record. That alone is enough to make the decision clear.
Chris,
I appreciate your opinion, however I would never base the election of the President sole on one issue like abortion if that's what you're saying by the decision is clear. The term of Bush should have taught us enough in that direction. Frankly, the abortion issue will never be solved by government, as it's a matter of the heart of the individual that chooses life or abortion for their unborn child. Time and time again, it's been proven, and is probably rightly so, that government presidents and laws cannot change peoples hearts. Only God can. That said, I want the BEST person in office who will do the most good for the common man and solving our civil problems and addressing the world's problems, whomever that is - Christian, non christian, atheist, "thinks he is a Christian" etc. - whatever. And McCain, while being a noble man from what I know, is hardly a saint in any category from what I've read - and even McCain has written about himself and is well documented. (adultery, divorce etc.)
Bottom line - I kinda think Government is like going to the store. I choose to shop at a store that's well managed, has what I need, is convenient, serves the people, and has fair prices. I don't choose or not choose to shop there because of the manager's or employees personal/religious beliefs or views about abortion for example. That's not part of the job to me.
John C,
Are you saying that what a politician believes about abortion is "not part of his job"?
Your comparison of a shop-keeper and a politician simply doesn't work, when it comes to the issue of voting for politicians. Compared to a politician, what a shop-keeper believes about abortion has little actual bearing on the legality of abortion (beyond his/her ability to vote as a citizen). What a politician believes about abortion has *much* bearing on its legality, because the politician might be in a position to pass state laws or to elect Supreme Court judges.
About the latter (the judges), it is simply not true that electing President Bush, Jr. has done little or nothing for the pro-life cause in America. As President, the man has appointed two pro-life judges to the Supreme Court, which resulted in the outlawing of partial-birth abortion! That is a huge victory for the lives of unborn children!
Obama is not only in favor of continuing the legal murder of unborn children, but he is also in favor of having the "choice" to allow born children to die, when they were "supposed" to have been aborted (killed). This is a moral atrocity on the level of Nazi Germany. It amazes me that Bible-believing Christians can put other issues above this one.
John,
You and I are probably going to have to agree to disagree from here on out, as there are a great many fundamental disagreements between us.
I appreciate your opinion, however I would never base the election of the President sole on one issue like abortion if that's what you're saying by the decision is clear. The term of Bush should have taught us enough in that direction. Frankly, the abortion issue will never be solved by government, as it's a matter of the heart of the individual that chooses life or abortion for their unborn child.
Government DOES influence abortion in this country. What about the ban on partial-birth abortion? Without pro-life leaders in our government, that grizzly practice would still be widely practiced.
Our government very much should be in the business of creating a set of laws that reflect how we want our society to function.
Time and time again, it's been proven, and is probably rightly so, that government presidents and laws cannot change peoples hearts. Only God can.
That's debatable, but either way, I don't really see why that's relevant. What's right and wrong operates independently of what 50%-plus-one reads in opinion polls.
That said, I want the BEST person in office who will do the most good for the common man and solving our civil problems and addressing the world's problems, whomever that is - Christian, non christian, atheist, "thinks he is a Christian" etc. - whatever. And McCain, while being a noble man from what I know, is hardly a saint in any category from what I've read - and even McCain has written about himself and is well documented. (adultery, divorce etc.)
That is a laudable goal, but it goes back to my first point: The greatest "civil problem" we have in our country is abortion. Over one million lives are ended each year. That is far more important than the college affordability or the socialization of health care.
Bottom line - I kinda think Government is like going to the store. I choose to shop at a store that's well managed, has what I need, is convenient, serves the people, and has fair prices. I don't choose or not choose to shop there because of the manager's or employees personal/religious beliefs or views about abortion for example. That's not part of the job to me.
Would you still shop at that wonderful store, even if the store owner shot and killed every child that walked through the door?
Z:
I think many of the quotes you include in the beginning of your post are of people who are flaunting their ignorance.
It is my opinion that many of them do not understand how our three branches of government work. President Bush does not write laws and unfortunately right now their exists a Supreme Court decision by the name of "Roe v. Wade" which makes it unconstitutional for Congress or any state to outlaw abortion.
There are many things that I am upset with Bush about... However, given the chance to vote again in 2000 and/or 2004, I would still cast my vote for Bush because of this issue.
In my opinion, Roberts & Alito, will be a good legacy for the Bush presidency.
And people need to understand that overturning 'Roe' does not make abortion illegal. It simply gives the power back to the people...
In some states, abortion would be outlawed, in many states it would not... but I am hopeful that more restrictions would be able to be put in place....
I would hope that we could start by banning all abortions outside of the first trimester. I believe that polls show our population is in favor of that... That doesn't solve the problem, but it moves us a step closer, and begins to save lives...
Christopher:
A politician/president has to represent all of the people of the US, not just Christians. That's why we live in a free country with the right to practice our beliefs openly and freely. God bless the USA for at least that. Whether we like it as Christians or not, supposedly the greatest minds in our land have determined that abortion is not murder and have justified it as a necessary allowable unfortunate alternative to birth. I don't like that any better than you do, but do like the fact that I'm allowed to make up my own mind if I ever had to over issues that our government have decided are faith based issues.
There appears to be universal laws of man that everyone seems to agree on even from studies of ancient man down through the ages and in primitive societies. Things like murdering one another - people generally agree that's wrong, with or without moral/biblical "sense" of any kind. Obviously we all don't universally agree on abortion, whether that's out of pure ignorance of some, or the fact that one's faith and belief tends to influence ones view of whether or not a fetus is a true "human being" yet at the time of abortion, or just when that it is, etc. But bottom line, I'm allowed to choose and freely allow my faith to influence that decision on my own over what government obviously has decreed as a debatable issue. I don't like the idea of abortion or "born children" being allowed to die any better than you do. But Obama or anyone else in his position, the government, or the president is not the guilty party. The person making the choice is and they will have to answer to God for that when and if their time comes to do that. But bottom line at this point, I'm given the adult choice to make over an issue that at is largely determined right or wrong by religious or faith belief - at least that's how government sees it. If it were the contrary and an evangelical more fundamentalist president was elected and made every decision based on his faith, we'd have to also allow someday for the election and same practice by a muslim, buddhist, jehovah's witness, mormon, atheist, etc. I certainly don't want them telling me what I can and can't do based on their faith.
On another level of this with abortion . . . do you think possibly God is not as bothered by abortion as we are if, in His infinite wisdom and all knowing-ness - it allows for a sinless child to have eternity in Heaven with Him (Ezekiel 18:4) rather than spend a life of living HELL like some children will with abusive parents, or a teenage girl that is too young to raise a child, or a drug infested home where the child will be born addicted to all sorts of things via the mother? Or perhaps a family too busy and too caught up with their careers and lives to want a baby, which will largely go unloved and uncared for? And so a kid from these circumstances most likely eventually grows up to be a tragic sinful person never to know Christ? Frankly, I'd take the eternity with Christ over the other scenarios myself or for any child. I'm not saying that's going to be the case in ever situation, but think about it. God knows what He's doing and is in control. And I'm not saying God doesn't hate abortion, but he probably hates just as much the circumstances that got to the point of a life being conceived and the circumstances that will possibly surround the child once it's born. And He probably hates just as much the hate mongering that goes on from Christians over this whole issue, and what it brings out in others on the opposite side.
So all that said, I just think there are many many many many other important issues that need addressing by someone with some real smarts and ability to cause change for the good - and largely turn our economy and world around so that babies CAN be born into a BETTER world and so unwanted babies are never conceived in the first place. I think we generally make things worse by causing such political upheaval, hate, over focus and polarization over an issue that largely can't be effected in terms of the bottom fundamental issue of peoples HEARTS and LIVES being in and ABLE to be in the right place in the first place. Bush may have elected two anti abortion supreme judges that changed the course of partial birth abortion, but what has he or anyone surrounding that done to effect the actual issues of people wanting/needing/choosing to have abortions in the first place? If as a Christian President he is to make an impression on NON Christians somehow and change their hearts, he's certainly done a fairly miserable job of that. He may have helped to alleviate a symptom of the problem, but he hasn't effected or changed the actual problem itself. Glenn Stassen, noted United States ethicist, professor and Baptist theologian, now a professor at Fuller Theological Seminary states, at the end of his albeit controversial article on abortion rates during Bushes term (but setting that aside) - states something in the end I still find important to note, and even though some of the research he did has since been corrected, he states at the end
"Economic policy and abortion are not separate issues; they form one moral imperative. Rhetoric is hollow, mere tinkling brass, without health care, health insurance, jobs, child care, and a living wage. Pro-life in deed, not merely in word, means we need policies that provide jobs and health insurance and support for prospective mothers."
Also found written more recently of him is "He also continues to criticize the Bush administration for economic policies that he says bring hardship on low-income women. "It is clear to me that undermining the financial support for mothers, undermining the availability of medical insurance, and increasing the jobless rate for prospective mates so that they are less likely to marry, has a bad influence on abortion rates and infant mortality rates."
So we can't JUST focus on abortion laws and pro choice or pro life as the only issue in this debacle. It is entirely possible that a candidate that IS pro-choice can bring about change in our world that would actually lower abortion rates, rather than for them to stay about the same or have little decrease as has been shown with Bush. (note, I didn't say "risen" as some have been touted as saying as it is documented that abortion rates have stayed about the same or only slightly decreased under Bushes terms, but have not increased. That said, they had largely fallen at a much sharper rate before Bush took office. (Source: Alan Guttmacher Institute, "Trends in Abortion in the United States ")
Anonymous: You said . . .
The greatest "civil problem" we have in our country is abortion. Over one million lives are ended each year. That is far more important than the college affordability or the socialization of health care.
This is short sited thinking over the issues. We can't just consider abortion rights alone as the only problem. See my quotes from theologian Glenn Stassen on this one in my previous post.
And if all one million of those lives had lived - what is the toll that many of them would take on single mothers, foster homes, government health care programs, crime, the eventual downfall perhaps of many of their lives . . . what kind of civil problems would all that bring about? We complain about all those kids when they grow up and cause problems - we shelter our kids from them by putting them in Christian schools, etc. - but we sure want to make sure they get born into often what would be unfortunate circumstances! (?)
Would you still shop at that wonderful store, even if the store owner shot and killed every child that walked through the door?
Again, I no more like abortion than you do. BUT - the government and our supposed best minds in it have ruled on what MURDER is and is not. And it has ruled that abortion is not murder and Americans have the right to choose abortion and make up their own mind based on their moral or faith based beliefs. I would still do everything I can to talk someone out of an abortion and offer alternatives. But bottom line, someone that does not share my beliefs has the right to choose based on what government has ruled on. If this was not the case, anyone elected to any position could make decisions based on their own faith beliefs of any kind, Christian or non Christian, and we could have no control over it.
So question in all of this:
Why do so many fellow Christian couples I know or have heard of work so hard/spend so much money to adopt children from foreign countries rather than adopt here in the US from foster homes, orphanages or Mom's considering abortions? If we're so concerned about saving the lives of unborn children in the US, why don't we do EVERYTHING we can to partner with organizations supporting mothers contemplating abortion and adopt infants from mother's who turn around and make the choice to have the child? Why don't we jump to adopt children in foster homes or orphanages that are from abusive homes, parents that are incarcerated, or children that are simply unwanted?
If you knew for sure that you could change the mind of a coke addicted mother contemplating abortion and save/adopt her coke effected baby, would you? Why not if not?
Why did Steven Curtis Chapman adopt 3 babies all from China? Why did he not fully financially support 3 mothers here who would have had abortions and adopt those babies? Heaven knows with his money I'm sure he could do this ten fold. And influence many others to do the same.
Zach, you guys are looking at adopting a foreign child. Why foreign? Are there Mom's in Albuquerque you could work with to adopt from instead of them having an abortion? Aren't there plenty of kids in orphanages or foster homes you could adopt now? I just saw a BEAUTIFUL 12 year old girl on a local TV newscast that features a "Children of Iowa" program that are looking for adoptive homes. She just wanted a family that would love her, play games with her, help her with her school work, and allow her to be herself, while helping her work through the problems she's had as a child from a troubled home. And to boot, she had 2 beautiful sisters as well to go along with her. What gives?
If our family situation was more stable right now and we had the finances, I would adopt these girls in a heartbeat. Hopefully maybe someday we will do something like that.
I seem to see plenty of Christians going for foreign adoptions - as if it's the Christian "in" thing to do or somehow on a higher moral level. Like we get more God points for that or something? What about the kids in our own backyards that need to be rescued/saved and given homes just as well?
John C,
Brother, I thought that *I* wrote long comments on blogs, but you have beaten even me! :-) Seriously, I don't have time to answer all of the questions that you asked and points that you made, but I do want to address the question that you raised about supposedly "sinless" unborn children going to Heaven if they are aborted. The Bible does not seem completely clear on the destination of unborn children who die, but it *is* clear from the Bible that babies are "born in sin" and "conceived in iniquity." Therefore, they are not sinless simply by virtue of being unborn, or born, children.
As for it possibly being better for a baby who may have a "HELL" of a life (your word and capitalization, not mine) to be aborted, I myself was born to a manic-depressive, seriously volatile mother and a father who drank heavily at times. In God's providence, I was also born with a physical disability-- Cerebral Palsy. I was verbally, and at times, physically abused as a child. People teased me at school. When I was nine, my mother committed suicide. By your logic of supposedly "hellish" lives justifying abortion, John, why should I *not* have been aborted?
Let's keep it simple. If a person running for President of the United States of America does not have the moral integrity to stand up for the unborn he is disqualified on a moral basis.The evidence from a scientific and medical perspective that the fetus is an unborn child is overwhelming.Everybody knows the President doesn't " write the laws ". But he does appoint the Supreme Court justices that could overturn Roe v.Wade.Murder is condemnded in the Bible by God Himself. Obama supports the murder of unborn children - how can any Christian vote for an immoral politician who sacrifices the unborn for political expediency ?
We all need to see the big picture on this issue. Much of modern evangelical thought has shunned the big picture in favor of the passionate tunnel vision that has propelled them to the headlines. If you claim that a voting record indicates an either/or support or opposition of a belief system, you are guilty of committing the logical fallacy of bifurcation.
Additionally, we must rationally consider the source of these claims. The "Lorne Baxter" who created this film has a series of pseudonyms designed to cover up his true identity. This is an irrational follow-up to his previous attacks on Obama based on his race, Arabic name, and other clearly outlandish "disqualifications."
Remember all that as Christians we are commanded (not asked) to love God with all our heart, mind and strength. Refusing to use our minds to discern truth and reason is not just ill-advised, it is a sin.
Ray: Good points - I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm not so concerned with the end decisions we make as Christians over abortion, but how most end up making these decisions, and the rather careless use of such things as this video with little investigation into who is behind it or what it truly claim, and how it is presented.
Christopher:
I'm sad to hear of your circumstances - you have survived and overcome a lot it sounds like. I too have faced challenges in my life - not near to the extremes physically but more so emotionally.
Anyway - let me see if I can convey what I'm feeling: I'm not saying that any baby "should" be aborted for any reason. I'm just saying look at it from God's perspective. He is all knowing, all powerful, and can claim anything and use it for good. He is in complete control. Obviously in God's providence, he chose you to live and live amidst unbelievable circumstances. And in other cases, he could have allowed for abortion to take place. Not cause it, not be happy with it, but still allow for it and deal with it. God is in control whether we mess up or not.
God certainly allows for life to be expendable once we are born. And this is true and seen all throughout nature. 3 day old baby birds ( believe they WERE actually sparrows!) fell out of their nest made in the rafters of our deck in our back yard during a windy thunderstorm. The next morning, 1 was dead, and two were barely alive, helpless, and had no way of returning. I was mortified - near tears when I saw them - blind, helpless, rain soaked bodies lying in the grass (and we have lots of stray cats!) We rescued them, rebuilt their nest, and returned them. To my knowledge, they lived and became happy birds. But we were also told "officially" from nature sources that the proper course would have been to have left them alone, and let nature take it's course. That's the pattern/will that God has provided and He is in control. I'm not so sure we're all that much different - We can be killed any minute. Innocent children are killed all the time for every reason known to man. Many born with disease, cancer, birth defects and soon die. Is it our given lot for all of us - and each and every baby to be born into this world? Especially if our true home and eternity is truly with God? Aren't we NOT made for this earth but created for an eternity with Christ? So my thinking is that we make a whole lot more out of the abortion issue, allowing it to rule our political mind set, with all sorts of very negative and dividing fall out, and in the name of "sanctity of life" and wanting every baby conceived to be born - when I'm not all that certain that God is as concerned in the same way. (Note that I didn't say God is not concerned, I just said not in the same manner that many Christians are, for reasons that I believe are often more self serving and in effort to feel/be morally superior to others.) I guess I feel if abortion to God was as big of an issue as many Christians make it out to be, with often devastating consequences to our cause as Christians in the world's eyes, there would be a lot more written in God's word about it, don't you think? Why is there no 11th commandment "thou shalt not kill thy unborn child?" (OK - I know I know, it should be covered under "Thou shalt not commit murder.") But just seems like there would have been a LOT more covered in the bible about it that's clear and to the point, considering the issue that Christians make out it at the level that they do.
So I'm not so much pro choice or pro life - I'm pro letting God be God - because in the end He is in complete control - we don't have to do His bidding work for Him. Rather we should focus more so on living a peaceful, loving existence with our fellow man - Christian and non-Christian - and try to do more to curb the circumstances that put people in the position to want to or feel the need to have abortions. That obviously comes from a whole host of social reform that most Christians don't even seem to begin to touch on in their debate and arguments for pro-life. They only focus on one thing - abortion - and if you immerse yourself in the world rather than the Christian bubble of church and other Christians, you find that method is back firing horribly and doing little good other than to cause division and strife.
I have been out of town, that is why I have not been able to engage in this discussion.
John, please explain why my reasons in this post don't convince you that you should be a one issue voter. Is it just that you don't put slavery, child abuse, or rape on the same level as abortion? If a president was in favor of legalized rape (I know it would never happen, but just work with the hypothetical) it wouldn't matter what the issues would be right? So explain to me why abortion is not the same type of category.
In terms of the background to this story, you can read the transcripts yourself from the floor of the senate yourself. Make your own conclusions. This makes me want to throw up to be honest. Strong language I know, but we need strong language in the face of these atrocities. (you'll have to copy and paste)
http://takeyourvitaminz.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-obama-really-voted-for-infanticide.html
John, just to repeat. I would assume you would be a one-issue voter one some moral issues right? Rape, slavery, child abuse, corporate stealing, cold blooded murder, etc...
Explain why abortion is not in the same category.
z
John C,
I am all for "letting God be God" too. I agree with you that He is sovereign and in complete control of everything that happens. However, we are still responsible and accountable for what we do, or *don't* do, to oppose evil in this world. Abortion is an incredible evil, and if we don't work to stop it, because there are supposedly "more important" matters to consider, God will hold us accountable for our lack of action. He is sovereign, but we still must take responsibility for our actions, or lack of them.
Also, about God being in complete control, He is, but He also works through *means* to stop evil. He doesn't always do it directly. Often, He works through Christians making Godly choices. God didn't directly stop racially-motivated slavery for 400 years-- but He did use the actions of William Wilberforce and others to bring an end to the sin of slavery. In the same way, God can use the efforts of Christians to end abortion, in the legal sphere (through working to outlaw it) and through adoptions (making it less "necessary"-- not that abortion ever is truly necessary, morally speaking). Your statements of not being so concerned about ending abortion and "letting God be God" are partially right on God's sovereignty, but they leave out our responsibility as Christians to oppose the legalized murder of the defenseless unborn in this world.
John, just to repeat. I would assume you would be a one-issue voter one some moral issues right? Rape, slavery, child abuse, corporate stealing, cold blooded murder, etc...
Explain why abortion is not in the same category.
Because, right or wrong, if I go up to 10 people on the street and ask them if murder is wrong and should be illegal I will most likely get 10 agreeable answers. If I ask them if abortion is wrong and should be illegal, I will probably get 10 different answers all over the map. And government is in place to represent the people. Right or wrong regardless of our view as Christians.
For whatever reason, man, society, government has concluded that rape, slavery, child abuse, corporate stealing, and cold blooded murder are common "wrongs" that anyone and everyone has basically agreed on. But obviously, for whatever reasons, abortion has not been viewed the same way. Again, right or wrong. And our government has ruled on that, based on our free and democratic society. I don't know why - I don't know that I agree - but I know that's the facts that have been dealt. For whatever reason, be it that a mother cannot see an unborn child, pure sin, or selfishness, society and government does not universally agree that abortion is in the same category - for now anyway. Thus, in lieu of that fact, government has given us a CHOICE to make up our own mind in this case. Obviously, government and society sees the point in NOT allowing us to make up our mind with regards to murder, rape, etc. and that is good. (Well, we can commit those crimes, but there is punishment due.) But if the majority believes it's going to boil down to a religious conviction that determines whether or not you believe human life begins at conception or physical birth from the womb, then I believe we live in a free society that has allowed us freedom of our religion to choose and make up are own mind - and I'd like to keep it that way for other reasons that could someday backfire against us if it wasn't that way. In the highly unlikely event that a Muslim is someday elected president, are we prepared for him invoke rules of Muslim faith on US Law? Do we want woman killed for adultery? Thieves hands cut off? Death to Muslims who deny their faith? If we're going to allow faith and religious belief in law to influence matters that have been deemed a matter of faith and religion, such as abortion (again, I'm not saying it's right but that's what government has concluded - for now anyway) then we have to be prepared to someday allow for another faith to have influence or control in the US, because the US was founded on freedom of religion. Are we prepared for that?
For that matter, why don't we enact laws surrounding all the other matters of Christian faith? How about imprisonment for a man caught coveting his neighbor's wife? Death for anyone that has an idol other than our God? Imprisonment for anyone that takes the Lord's name in vain? Why do we focus ONLY on murder and abortion?
But my BIGGEST issue as I see it is how many seemingly short sighted Christians allow it to be the one controlling issue in how they view a candidate, politics, and elections - everything surrounding abortion really. And as a Christian, I'm sick and tired of being looped in that same camp when I'm NOT that way. I just don't believe we're being that effective and rather, causing more division and strife and creating a very bad image of Christianity - one that I don't believe is ever going to be repaired now. I'm not saying we should all be loved and agreed with as Christians. But I'm not sure God wishes for us to be viewed in the way with which we are because of our stance and actions regarding abortion and how we have allowed it to be the one captivating issue that surrounds our faith with regards to politics. We're just seen as shallow, stupid, and short sighted and no one wants to listen to us at all over any issue because of that.
Good points Christopher. I would agree 100%. My main beef, that started this whole debate, was mostly over the means and methods of how we go about fighting evil and abortion and allowing it to be a single defining issue of Christians in society in how they see us. And I don't believe videos such as the one shown here are the way to go about it at all. I'm just so sick of Christians communicating in these ways.
As in most things, what would Jesus do, and how would he do it?
So Zach . . . the adoption thing: Why a foreign adoption? Why not take $30,000 and use it to help turn around the entire life of a single teenage mother considering abortion as well as adopt that baby? What would that say to her and others about Christianity? Who all gets that $30,000 btw? Someone must be profiting somewhere along the way in all that.
(I'm not saying you're profiting - I'm saying someone somewhere along the way in a government or org is.)
John,
That logic doesn't work. I don't buy it. I am so glad that William Willberforce didn't subscribe to that line of reasoning for when to fight injustice. People used to agree too that slavery was just fine. It took people fighting against the majority to make it illegal. If you lived during the time of William Wilberforce in England so you think you would have just sat back and said, "Well, most people think it's all good, so I shouldn't fight against it. We need to go with what the majority has decided".
So if government decided that infanticide (the logical outworking of abortion) should be legal, would you vote against that as a trump card or just go with the flow of the governmental decisions?
What about when in a few years it becomes (probably will) hate speech to say anything negative about homosexuality? Most people in our country will support this. Will you go with the flow on that one or choose to fight against it?
But again, ponder the role of democracy. Government should reflect the will of the people. Government is supposed to listen to us and not vice versa. Does that not obligate us to reason with follow voters and persuade them to vote for justice as opposed to sitting back and just saying "Well, it's legal, so I guess we have to go with it" Wrong answer I think in view of Christianity and where God has placed us in this time and space with this governmental system.
John, abortion is not a "faith issue" anymore than murder, child abuse or rape is. I haven't quoted any Bible verses to oppose it. We all have a worldview about issues of morality regardless of whether you label yourself as religious or not. The question then becomes, which worldview is best? The one that says kill the baby for no reason whatsoever? Or the one that says preserve life. Saying it's a "faith issue" doesn't work out.
Finally, if you don't believe there is a distinction between infanticide and abortion then you are morally obligated to fight against abortion as a trump card issue because everyone (hopefully) knows that infanticide does not work (evidenced by the fact we have laws against it). If you think abortion is different than infanticide then you could vote for Obama and be consistent, but then the question is: what IS the difference between abortion and infanticide. My claim is there is no fundamental difference that legitimizes the killing of a baby in the womb. Maybe you know of one. Make sense?
Thoughts?
John,
I'll answer you question about adoption later. have to go play with the kids.
z
Zach, I this paragraph does the best job of addressing John's main argument:
But again, ponder the role of democracy. Government should reflect the will of the people. Government is supposed to listen to us and not vice versa. Does that not obligate us to reason with follow voters and persuade them to vote for justice as opposed to sitting back and just saying "Well, it's legal, so I guess we have to go with it" Wrong answer I think in view of Christianity and where God has placed us in this time and space with this governmental system.
John, I'd also encourage you to give some serious though to Zach's question about slavery, rape or murder. I don't think the "10 people on the street" test is at all meaningful. Did we use this test for women's suffrage or slavery? Just because some people think abortion ought to be legal, doesn't mean they are right.
Chris & Zach:
I think you guys may have missed my point (that I tried to hammer over and over again.) I'm not saying ANY of this is RIGHT. (i.e. 10 people being all over the map with abortion.) You're right - that doesn't make any of it right. BUT that's how, for now anyway, things are and have been ruled. And we live in a democracy, not a theocracy. Yes, we have an obligation to fight that tooth and nail and work to persuade those that don't agree with us to see our point of view. But again, the main focus of of what I originally tried to say here was HOW we go about that, and whether or not videos such as posted here are the right way to do it and responsible as Christians for us to create. endorse and pass on. I'd love to see what 10 non-Christians and/or Obama supporters would think of this video and how it is all portrayed? But anyway, along the way I kind of got sidetracked with more or less publicly hashing out many of my own internal arguments I've had with myself over this whole thing trying to figure it out for real, and not just take things at face value. And I've of course been playing a little devil's advocate too. All with the hope that we see that we can't make elections and politics sole a one issue affair.
One thing I will ask with regards to making abortion illegal, and this is being asked in many circles on both sides: What do we do with the fact that women having then illegal abortions will become criminals? What should their punishment be? How long should they be imprisoned? What is America prepared to do (and the Christian community especially) to deal with what will again become a society of back alley/back room/illegal abortions or worse yet, women trying to perform abortions themselves? Are we truly prepared to go back to those days? Do you REALLY think this is every going to happen? (just do one google on the history of illegal abortions and that will make you throw up just as well. For one, try this one: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/66/
Further to ask: What if under illegal abortions, your own daughter of any age came to you and said "Dad, I'm pregnant. I don't agree with your guys convictions and I'm going to have an abortion - and there's nothing you can do to stop me." What would you do? Would you turn her in? Would you allow her to be arrested if she was caught? Would you help her have an illegal abortion? Would you let her find one on her own?
These are all things I don't hear a lot of people talking about. Making abortion illegal will not stop abortions, and will certainly create a host of other social problems. (just google "what if abortion was illegal?") I'm not sure that's better or worse than the current situation. But it is one we'd have to contend with just as much as we contend with the consequences of legal abortion now in how the sanctity of human life is still protected. What is the lesser of two evils? Right now as Christians, we are free to help steer people away from abortions. We are free as Christians to live out our convictions and not have abortions. For those that don't share in our convictions, they are obviously free to choose otherwise and will have to answer to God for their choices. We may just have to leave this in God's hands.
I don't know - I go back and forth. Part of me really likes being allowed to make my own choices with regards to issues effected by my faith and not have the government decide for me. Who knows how far that is allowed to go someday? (And I DO believe right now abortion is considered a spiritual issue - whether we like it or agree or not - having largely to do with ones convictions over what you believe. However I know science is helping to prove that wrong.)
Zach, I do find the comparison with slavery really fascinating and, while I've never studied the person you mentioned, I will do so. I'm very intrigued to compare the two situations.
Anyway - this has all been a fascinating discussion. I can't really post again on this (I'm sure you're all disappointed!) as I've spent waaaay too much time doing this over the weekend. But it's been very thought provoking and I appreciate all of your replies and will certainly keep them to dwell on as I continue to sort this out in my own mind. After 20 years of being a Christian, and having never actually come out of my shell and take a hard stand on issues, I really want to come to my own decisions made from wise study and discernment (as it sounds like you all mostly have, and I say that with respect) and not just from propaganda or going along with the Christian bubble crowd. I'd caution and encourage us all to do the same. Question everything we think we believe or others tell us to believe. Why do we believe it? That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.
peace out,
- J
John,
Since you wrote that your latest post will be your last one, I just want to say that I respect and encourage your desire to come to your own understanding on issues such as abortion. I especially appreciate what you wrote about seeking an understanding through wisdom and discernment. The Bible brings wisdom to us, and the Holy Spirit brings discernment. Keep seeking understanding along that path, my brother in Christ. God's blessings to you!
This post really helps frame the "one issue" vote. Also, presidents choose Supreme Court Justices and so that makes our choice of President important. And I think history will prove that Bush's legacy will hinge on his appointments and not Iraq.
"And I think history will prove that Bush's legacy will hinge on his appointments and not Iraq."
Brian:
I don't know Brian . . . we should ask the people in Iraq about that. We should ask the families of 4,155 (as of today) slain American soldiers from the Iraq war. We should ask the hundreds of National Guard troops - ones that signed up to serve the US here on our soil, as originally designed (it is the NATIONAL guard, right?) - now having to go to Iraq to shore up the shortages of troops there, leaving terrible shortages of National Guard troops here in the US to deal with national disasters we've been having, as well as they're struggling families behind that have lost the wages of a job while they're serving (we had shortages of National Guard troops in Iowa during the floods because many of them were deployed in Iraq.) We should ask a very depleted military that is very short on troops at this time. (I just saw a very telling special on all of this on PBS the other night so this is all fresh in my thoughts.) We should ask the thousands of people struggling in this economy to make basic ends meet, have lost homes, jobs, whole lives. And we should ask all of the people profiting from big oil, including the Bush family by far. It's not too hard to read the writing on the wall. Real honestly - I think you're almost lucky not to be born into this world these days. Like Zach said, Jesus come quickly!
And yet we're so worried about abortions as a single all encompassing issue and that's all we talk about and base whole elections over . . . something that we as Christians (or not Christian) have the right to say no to, and that others that don't share in our beliefs can choose at their own risk of a judging God. I don't know . . . I don't see how abortion, while CERTAINLY a serious issue, still deserves SO much of our attention as a single issue and these other issues don't. All I'm asking for is a little balance! Life is LIFE and it's all precious in God's eyes, whether it's an unborn baby, a soldier, or an entire once successful American middle class family with kids now living homeless. (they DO exist - many more than you would realize.) All I'm saying is that we can't judge and pay so much attention to this one issue of abortion. It's not that simple. It's certainly convenient for Christians to grab on to the cause as their high moral holy grail, which I believe is what we do. It's not messy to confront abortion as one doesn't usually have to personally deal with the actual physical issue of it vs. just talking about it, do we? But it's a whole other thing to deal with issues staring us every day right in our face on our own streets and in our backyards that most Americans are facing - isn't it?
(Sorry - I guess that wasn't my last post - so I lied! :-) But this was sort of on a different angle.)
I will be a one issue voter.
My vote will be to give others their right to vote one day.
To let them be one of the 10 people that are poled on the street.
To let their voice be one of the voices heard that directs our government.
I will not cast a vote that takes the rights away from the most helpless of all. One that quites their voice even more. One that says, "You are not worth fighting for".
I will be voting on one issue. The rights of those who have been been given life.
Anon:
Who said unborn babies are the most helpless of all? Does God have a chart somewhere that gauges the most important and most helpless of all life? How about the LIVING children - living out of cars alone while their parents work during the day over the summer? (we have children in our schools who have been in that position.) Does God consider unborn children the most important and most helpless of all - so important to want us to blatantly and foolishly ignore every single other issue - some that actually might help the situation and save MORE lives across the board? No one can say that for sure, and I'm NOT saying unborn infants are not worthy of our highest consideration. But to think so single minded is VERY dangerous.
I hope and pray that when you're old, elderly and more helpless than you are now, that voters out there consider more than just "one issue" in elections - for when you're living in a 1 room apartment, fighting for elderly care you need, you're retirement and savings are gone due to economic conditions of companies folding, medicare and health care that doesn't cover enough to meet your healthcare needs, and you can't afford prescription medicines you need, and at age 81 you have to work behind the counter at McDonalds just to make ends meet (ever see these elderly people working at your local McDonalds? Talk to them some time while they're waiting on you hand and feet and ask them of their story and plight - I have. They're not working at McDonalds for the joy of it.) Is this how you want your parents to end up? Is this how you want to end up? Is this dignity and sanctity of life at the OTHER end of the life spectrum? Where do they fall on God's "helpless" guage?
I KNOW we must consider abortion. But my guess is in God's eyes, we're being VERY short sited, reckless and dangerous to the entire Kingdom of God to make that the sole basis for our voting record. Your words sound very noble and heroic, and all I need is a choir humming a good Hymn behind them to give it dramatic effect. But to me, with all due respect, they sound very foolish and dangerous. I'd hope I consider all of Man and God's kingdom/creation when I do something as important and precious as cast my vote for someone. I might just as likely end up voting just the same as you. But my vote will mean a whole lot more and represent my care for a whole lot more people, AND include unborn children. A one issue vote considering abortion is a noble vote for that cause, but a severe lack of consideration for all the rest of God's creation.
By the way . . . would be nice to not be anonymous, especially if you're so proud of the position you've taken - I'd want to shout it to the world and who I am behind it.
Wow. What a debate. Here's a question though for the person who said that the aborted babies will be going to heaven.
So, what if people started killing born babies in drug homes, or babies who had been exposed to drugs and situations like that? Would we have the same attitude as abortion because they too, not yet reaching the age of accountability, would be going to heaven and would be spared a life of misery?
I'm not saying anyone should kill anyone or anything. I'm just saying that I think God has it all under control a lot more than we think He does sometimes. God's not sittin' up there saying "Oh crap . . . those Christians down there STILL haven't gotten roe vs. wade overturned. I don't know what I'm gonna do."
I'm not trying to be callous, cruel, or insensitive - I'm probably one of the most sensitive people you'd ever meet. But I just don't get the in-balance of attention christians give to the abortion issue in politics and elections, especially those that make it a "no-brainer one issue" voter of themselves, and then the lack of attention or thought to other social injustices in our world, and how those can be effected in the same way by who we elect and what we focus our attention on. Keep all the attention we want on abortion - I think that's great. But let's ALSO start bringing up some other issues that we feel strongly about that should effect our vote. What if we had TWO pro-life candidates? Then how would anyone know who to vote for? Otherwise in this whole thing, we look pretty dim-witted in the world's eyes and no one will give us the time of day. Dig? We hold a grand opportunity to bring many issues to the forefront of the world's eyes as Christians. Abortion, yes, is one there and should be up high on the list. But we need just as much attention and focus on other social issues as well.
At the end of the day, Christians need to be more concerned with spreading the Gospel, visiting widows and orphans in their time of trouble, and showing Christ's love to your neighbors than arguing about politics OR trying to impose Godly ways upon ungodly hearts.
Some one said that I want to vote for Barak Obama so badly, that I'm willing to compromise my belief that abortion is murder. Honestly, lately I have been praying that the LORD will put who HE wills into office and that I will not get in the way of that. We don't want to be like the children of Israel who demand a king and then God gives them what they want, despite His warnings to them.
I'm afraid for this country, it's future, and the judgement that will come down because of abortion. So I pray and wait and obey God.
John C -
Our military is a voluntary military. National Guardsmen are volunteer and many of them are former full-timers. I know several men and women who have come back from Iraq that saw many positive things taking place there. Parts of Iraq are receiving electricity and running water for the first time in history. Some want to blame civilian casualties on our guys, but the truth is that many of the insurgency hide among the population and kill innocents with their bombs. I would argue that our National Guard is protecting it's nation by being in Iraq. How come no one ever talks about pulling our military out Germany? There is larger population of U.S. military there. I mean WWII has been over for nearly 50 years now. Why don't we cry out to bring our troops home. Oh, that's right, they aren't necessarily in harms way, which is what the "military" is all about right? They are soldiers, right? Do we really think that it's as simple as just packing it in and bringing every last Sailor, Marine, Airman, and Soldier home so that the world will love America and the terrorists will come to their senses and declare a cease fire on the Western world? Okay our government, Dems and Repubs decided to move into Iraq. And this was after several UN requirements were not met in a climate of being attacked at home. So, we just give up? We leave with it unfinished and with the potential of it getting worse than before we toppled the Hussein regime?
To quote a popular movie, "The night is always the darkest before the dawn."
I have yet to hear history say that FDR was a horrible president for getting us into that European squabble that took the lives of 500,000 of our American men. Or the estimated 6 million Polish civilians that were killed, the 3 million + German civilians, not to forget the other countries and their military and civilian counts, for an estimated number of over 56 million people (civilian and military) that died in the era of WWII. Are we seriously wanting to discuss the voluntary sacrifice that our military men and women make by volunteering for the military? I don't think our military is full of dumb people who walked into a recruiters office and was duped into believing that there was not the potential of being "put in harms way" defending and serving in our military. And do you really think that the National Guard is only for cleaning up after natural disasters? What if the Church took care of that? - oh wait some do. But we don't get that story on PBS. And before you desire to write back regarding the comparisons of the Iraq war and WWII - it is the same. It's war time sacrifice. Which is the difference between killing babies and being killed because you are fighting in a war (either side).
Most abortions are done for selfish motivations. I pray that our service men and women are not killing innocent civilians in Iraq because they had sex and now do not want to deal with the consequences. In other words this is apples and oranges.
While I agree with you that toll of human life (both American and Iraqi) is maddening and saddening but it pales in comparison to the death toll that abortion is racking up.
Longing for the far off country, where Jesus is King.
"Some one said that I want to vote for Barak Obama so badly, that I'm willing to compromise my belief that abortion is murder."
So you do in fact believe abortion is murder and you're STILL willing to vote Obama?
If so, then this statement seems like a little bit of a copout:
"Honestly, lately I have been praying that the LORD will put who HE wills into office and that I will not get in the way of that."
Amy, please spend some prayerful time thinking this through a little further. I suspect that your heart is telling you one thing and your mind another.
Isn't that just what I said I was doing?
If abortion is murder, why are we not all out by abortion clinics physically stopping the doctors from performing them?
If, in a house on your street there was a man killing hundreds of little girls each year, and the cops were not going to do anything about, what would you do? Sit by and wait for the next election to get a mayor into office so that he can MAYBE tell the cops to stop this man?
If we are going to call abortion murder, and if we are going to call unborn babies little boys and girls, why are we not taking a bigger stand?
How do you know that I'm not?
Amy,
But God has not warned us against having a president that believes in pro-life. At this point we don't know who God wants for pres, so by faith and the word of God we work as hard as we can to determine who God would have us vote for.
In terms of what you said about "arguing about politics". I hear you. To be honest, I don't give a rip about politics beyond abortion and other human rights issues. My hope is not in the kingdom's of men and they can certainly only take us so far, which is not that far.
But when we have a holocaust on the unborn in this world I feel we have to fight against it insofar as we can. This is not a "political" issue. It is a justice issue and as Christians we are commanded to seek it (Micah 6:8).
z
I wonder what God would say about abortion being legal. I mean if a person doesn't have an abortion because it's ILLEGAL, but wishes it so in their heart, isn't that the same thing in God's eyes? If the only thing keeping them from murdering is the law of government, then aren't they still comitting the same sin?
I'd like to know what people here, besides voting, are doing to physically stop abortion from happening? (I'm not doing anything, so I'm not judging) A few comments have alluded to the fact that they are, in fact, "doing something" to stop it. I'm not talking picketing or working at Care Net, but like someone said--if there was a six month old baby being killed right in front of you, you'd step in a physically stop it. So, what's our responsiblity regarding this? I know we (myself included) like to sit around and think and talk and quote scripture, but honestly, I'm not sure what the responsiblity of the average christian is in this case.
"Some one said that I want to vote for Barak Obama so badly, that I'm willing to compromise my belief that abortion is murder. Honestly, lately I have been praying that the LORD will put who HE wills into office and that I will not get in the way of that."
- This makes my point. If that's the case, why vote? Why not just let God put who he wants in office?
"But when we have a holocaust on the unborn in this world I feel we have to fight against it insofar as we can."
What does this mean? Is it too far to physically stop people from killing childern?
In terms of exactly what we can do, I am not sure, since it would be illegal to physically stop people from entering an abortion clinic. This is why it's important to fight against it with law I think.
z
"In terms of exactly what we can do, I am not sure, since it would be illegal to physically stop people from entering an abortion clinic. This is why it's important to fight against it with law I think."
So all missionaries who are spreading the gospel in countries where it is illegal to convert people (not to mention the people who actually are converting) should stop and come home? Work to overturn the laws of that country before spreading the good news?
Or do we ignore the law of a nation and follow God's law and His standard, fully intending to face any consequences that come our way?
No response? Just posting 30 more articles on abortion? You just posted an article on partial birth abortion and how disgusting it was. You wouldn't physically stop a doctor from doing that?
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