Having been in music (jazz no less!) and coupling that with ministry, I've never had any realistic thoughts of "retirement life" as most Americans think of it. It's such a foreign idea to me. Reality wise, but in desire too. No desire to end up in florida on the beach or golf course every day for this bird. But anyway - on to another concern however.
I was actually really put off by how this message was delivered by good ol' JP. Now, I TOTALLY AGREE with what Piper is saying. But while I haven't seen a lot of JP, and the little bit I have heard/seen I've been a little luke warm to, I'm probably feeling a bit colder to him now after seeing this. For the simple reason of how this clip comes off and is produced. I'm just sitting here trying with all my heart to imagine being able to show this to anyone who's NOT a Christian, or even someone who is who does not know JP - and trying to imagine their impression. What do you think it would honestly be? I don't think it would be heard well. He says all of the right things - I don't argue with the content at all - if it were read on the page, I think it would be great. But the manner with which it's presented and produced (production of it has a lot to do with it in my mind, as well as his style) is just wack. The ominous non descript frightening music bed, his somewhat disheveled look that to me, makes him appear a bit off the edge, the whispery over dramatic voice, the hint of southern bible preacher accent, on and on. Maybe JP is just like this all the time and I'm not exposed to him enough? But I'm sorry . . . to the average Joe (I always think of my brother in law who believes in God, but won't step 10 feet inside a church!) I can only imagine JP coming off as somewhat of an over the top "crazy fundamentalist" who would get tuned out in less than a minute - by someone like my brother in law anyway, who's kind of your average "Joe six pack" kinda guy. Maybe I'm being harsh and overly judgmental, but I'm just trying to imagine WHO I would play this for, other than John Piper fans or extremely committed Christians? So I kinda ask why all this to only preach to the choir? I don't know . . . I'm all out for preaching the truth, the gospel, and the message Piper here has to deliver. But as someone very sensitive to how we communicate those messages these days to the average guy on the street, I feel this is just kinda scary if we think this is the way and style to do it.
Thoughts in return? Consider all of the non-churched/non-christians in your life. Would you play this for them? What would they think? Again, remember I AGREE with what's said. I just really am turned off by how it's presented. Hard radical biblical truth can be presented in such a way that it's still extremely convicting and challenging, without it coming off as being over the top, extremist, a bit crazy if you will.
Do you think God effectually calls sinners to repentance? What do you think Jesus meant when he said "my sheep know my voice?"
I agree we shouldn't add to the offensiveness of the Gospel with our presentation, but the Gospel is offensive and it asks for us to have a completely different mind than that of the world. Romans 12:1-2.
I wouldn't expect a nonbeliever to appreciate what John Piper is saying in this video. But I don't think the presentation adds to the offensiveness of Jesus' message.
Jesus said that if we follow him, then we must hate our mothers and fathers and spouses and children and our own lives too. Would you tell THAT to your nonbelieving friends? why not?
My point is that the Gospel is what it is. Trying to pretend it is something different until after somebody "drinks the koolaid" is not helpful and it reeks of trickery.
Let's just show our non believing friends and family the truth in our words and in our actions. Then Jesus' voice will come through us and his sheep will hear his voice and respond to it.
BTW, if you want to see a Piper video that will really "blow their socks off" then take a look at this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s
I agree with what you say to an extent. I agree that we need not and should not water down the gospel nor make it "kool aid" to go down better. However, I equally also believe that we need NOT make it purposely MORE offensive or harder to hear than it already is. This video and John Piper works way too hard to try and do that, and I believe it is unnecessary. I don't believe Jesus preached that way, nor do I believe He or scripture ever instructed us to preach or communicate that way. If you think that is effective in reaching the lost, I think you're kidding yourself and actually backing down from what's actually harder, more challenging to do. When people say to just "preach the offensive gospel as is" etc. - to me that's a total cop out and backing down from the challenge and model that Christ DOES represent in the creative ways that he himself used to communicate in each and every situation, and to bring himself down to meet people where they were at. Do you think this didn't take a considerable amount of humility, compassion, and creativity/thought from him as to how to do so? He didn't rattle off some complicated theology lesson, as I'm sure He could have. He didn't say "Oh, that's right, I need to make sure the gospel is still "offensive." (buzz word to me.) Remember, He never came at people from a lofty place on high. He met people exactly where they were at with the style, language, stories, metaphor, etc. that spoke to people. He certainly didn't approach communication such as Piper does here. Does he? So what does that ask of us? As Paul instructs us:
"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you." (I Corinthians 9:19-23)
So if we "wouldn't expect a nonbeliever to appreciate what John Piper is saying in this video" than what on earth is it's purpose then? Piper really doesn't need to be expending this kind of effort, cost, passion etc. to people who pretty much already get this message, does He? Of course, as I see it, that's largely what his ministry is built on, in observing the crowd that I know follows him, while he goes virtually unheard of in other sects of the Christian church world, and in the world itself outside of his followers. This doesn't appear to me to be balanced ministry or effective communication of the gospel. Rather, to me it is more placating a certain sect of believers that seem to revel in this style of ministry that is rather ineffective outside the walls of his already convinced crowd of followers.
I, too, have a problem WATCHING JP on video. He comes off a little too "something" for me...but I agree with his point here. So many people are not serving the Lord when they're NOT retired and after retirement, they just want to be comfortable and escape. Where are the retirees when there aren't enough sunday school teachers? Where are the retirees when there aren't enough nursery workers? Where are the older christian women who are meant to give younger women wisdom? Where are the older men? From my experience, they are no where to be found. Maybe I'm not running in the right circles, but when I hear that young mothers and fathers, who have been wearied by caring for their children all week are being begged to work in child care at church on Sundays, it saddens me a bit.
Don't get me wrong, too many younger people are truly in pursuit of entertainment as if their life depends on it. Either that, or entertainment for their families in the form of activities to fill up our time. So, this is convicting on a lot of levels.
I agree with John C (as I usually do, I'd like to meet him as we often think a like), in that I'm sick of the christian "production value" video that we are often shown. Videos that seek to evoke some kind of emotion. God's word, when taught properly and obeyed, is enough to convict, teach, and encourage.
John Piper is an intense man who loves God intensely. I wish that I were more like him, but even the degree to which I *am* like him seems to be a bit much for some Christians. I will not change though, because Piper is right-- life is *serious* business, eternally serious, in the sense that all people either go to be with God eternally, or to eternal punishment, without Him, eternally. How can we *not* be serious in the face of that reality? How can we allow ourselves to get sucked into a lifestyle that is consumed by trivialities, rather than taken up with the *reality* of eternity? (Obviously, we can get sucked into it, because we're terrible sinners, even as Christians.) How can we not be *on guard* against such a mentality?
As Zach wrote, John Piper is speaking to believers here, pleading with them not to be numbed to eternal realities by the lure of physical comfort and materialism. He speaks a message that *every* Christian could stand to hear, including myself. Are any of us really living as radically for God as we could be? That is Piper's challenge, to us and to himself (I know he is preaching to himself too, from things that he has said in past talks).
One other thought-- it's ironic that you ask where the older people and the retirees are when it comes to serve in church. That is *exact;y* the sort of sad situation that Piper is addressing with his exhortations to not waste one's life with a comfort-based, retirement mentality.
I know Piper is a great Man of God, great writer, thinker, teacher. I know for many He is tops on their list.
I guess for me, the few times I've seen and read Piper, and knowing and rubbing shoulders with several individuals in my life that follow him quite close (one who worked for him) he seems to have made the Christian life out to be one more so of suffering, hardship, toil, darkness, and seriousness to what I feel is an in-balance of this. The people I've known (and from hearing Piper) have been just a little too close to "salvation by works/suffering" if you ask me. (I think if I'm correct, Jesus already was reported to have done the suffering for us, right? :-) I've seen this critique of JP in other credible circles and in print, so I know I'm not totally alone with this point. I just want to tell JP to lighten up once in awhile - have some fun! Go ride bumper cars or something, (as I watched my daughter at her BD party last week.)
Chris, when you state "life is *serious* business, eternally serious, in the sense that all people either go to be with God eternally, or to eternal punishment, without Him, eternally.
Boy, that's a LOT of weight and guilt to carry around on one's shoulders day in day out, isn't it? I'm trying to figure out just how consumed with that we need to be these days. What does God want for us? Does he want us to carry that weight? Do we really have any control/influence over any of that?
I guess I've just always felt this aura from Piper and his followers as if it's all Piper preaches. His followers to me seem to flow into this camp overly serious, suffering zealots that loose their sense of fun and enjoyment in the Christian life. Yes, there are serious matters of faith and God for us to be about. But primarily, God is in control of the situation. I think we give ourselves WAAAAAY to much credit that we can actually do anything about it all, and don't give God enough credit that He's in control of things. The longer I live, the more I feel that way. Does God want us to live with such a HUGE burden on our backs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 12 months a year? I don't think that's what He had in mind. I believe God wants us to enjoy HIM and our life while we have it here - our families, our homes, His creation, my ipod, music, art, sports, sex, wine, food, celebration, tears, laughter, movies, Conan, on and on . . . all within balance of course. I'm not saying we need to all become Joel Osteen. But sometimes, there is a time for just all out jubilation and partying. We Americans think so much of ourselves and that we are obligated and ordained to do so much work for others, ourselves, or God - that I don't believe we spend enough time enjoying this life and others. My friend who lives and works in Canada just took a MONTH vacation in Hawaii - and this is the norm for her. In Europe, they routinely take 3 months a year for vacation time. The average American I think takes about 2 weeks per year.
I worked in churches for some 15 years and to be quite honest, in many ways, relationally, they were the loneliest and emptiest of my life. Just in terms of trying to have community and relationships with fellow work mates and friends - all to busy with church life to make relationships truly first priority. I've been guilty of this myself, but I sure try not to be.
I agree we can't be addicted and caught up in so much materialism and junk entertainment. But I think the material vices/entertainment addiction around us is not an end to itself - rather merely symptoms of the fact that we as humans don't enjoy God, His world, and others enough. It's not this seriousness, suffering, pain, and toil we need to get closer to - it's not "more and more work for God so people don't spend an eternity in Hell" it's more enjoyment of God and His blessings, more time with our family, more time with our friends, more time celebrating and less dwelling on how rotten sinners we all are and how much we have to do before our dying breath in the name of God and eternity to make up for that.
As I get older (44) and see more of life to enjoy and see what I have NOT enjoyed in the name of God and work for Him, and see more and more friends/people my same age loose their life in their prime to hideous things such as cancer, as I did just last week, and put less pressure on myself to perform/work/toil and suffer for God, I find that this path to me is more of what life's about and what God's desire for our life is, rather than the suffering for God Piper so often preaches. It's like with my daughter. Do I want to see her suffer in life, toil, work, be all "serious" all the time? Or do I want her to enjoy all of the precious things in this life - all of the precious people and family - for all their worth first and foremost?
Bottom line, I think some may tend to take teaching from someone like Piper, and turn it into a certain pride that they're doing the REAL work and suffering of God, and not dilly dallying with the trivial matters of life. And I sometimes think I see God just shaking his head and laughing as HE says "Man, you guys just DON'T get it, do you?! I wanted you to ENJOY life in me!!" What do you think I put all this here for? What else could be the reason? Suffering? For me?"
Lately in the midst of some life transition, I've dwelled on one of my favorite books/verses with this in mind: "So I commend the enjoyment of life, because nothing is better for a man under the sun than to eat and drink and be glad. Then joy will accompany him in his work all the days of the life God has given him under the sun.
Here is something for you to try and I mean this in all seriousness. Take about a year and read 3 chapters from the New Testament a day. You'll get through it a few times. After the year come back reread the comments that you just made and see what you think. My sense is that your comments are not that biblically informed in terms of the whole tone of the New Testament. If we are Christians we should be people of the Book and it would probably do all of us good to do this exercise that I outline. I know I need it.
In terms of what you said about God wanting us to enjoy God... It really sounds like you need to read Desiring God. He deals with this issue from cover to cover. It would help you understand Piper and it would also help you understand what it means Biblically to enjoy God. You can read it for free online.
First, I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. I will be praying for you.
Second, I am sorry-- I should have made it clear that for the Christian, life is both serious *and* joyful business. In John Piper's writings, the joy that we are Biblically called to find in God is quite often the *context* of our being willing to live radically for Him. It's not even even primarily a matter of our "suffering" or not suffering. It's about finding joy in God that is so great (because *He Himself* is so great!) that we will not look at making radical sacrifices for Him as being "suffering" in the first place.
About peoples' eternal destinies, we do not, and should have to, bear that weight on our shoulders. God converts people; we do not-- which is not to take away from our responsibility (and *joyful* privilege!) to evangelize.
However, even as we do not bear the *ultimate* burden for peoples' eternal destinies on our shoulders, isn't the reality of eternity itself a serious one-- one which should cause us to guard our hearts against being *overly* preoccupied with earthly pleasures, to a degree that our view of eternity grows dim and our hearts grow complacent? I think that this is the sort of pointed question that Piper is raising to fellow Christians (and to himself) in the video.
Thanks guys. Good posts. I remember trying to get into "Desiring God" and just couldn't for some reason. But it's still on the shelf! Could have been where I was at in the moment.
I think any eye opener for me lately? Removing myself from working for/attending Church (Chris, if you don't know I was in vocational ministry for 20 some years and then in the past year have stepped down from that - for many complicated reasons - not all by choice, but I did find it was the best thing I've ever done in the end) as well as Christian culture, worship music, most of my friends (who were all associated with church here - kind of came with the territory/job as you know) and just about anything and everything else to do with Christianity apart from the Bible. It's been quite an eye opener. Especially to see, at least in our community here, how invisible and hidden church/Christian life/culture is and really has very little impact. At least in our neck of the woods. So it's really made me re-think how I live my life as a Christian.
Anyway . . . a few thoughts I thought I'd throw out.
Chris - I'd sure love to meet you somehow someday - where do you live? I live in Iowa City. I actually took Zach's job at the church he was at here before he moved to Nashville, then New Mexico.
I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico and am a member of the church where Zach serves as the music leader. It would be great to meet you too!
I agree with you that the "culture" of Christians and church can often be "invisible" and "hidden" to those who aren't in it. For example, while I do think that there is a place for music made by Christians for Christians, we are also called to be salt and light, in the world but not of it. I greatly respect the classical guitarist, Christopher Parkening, and how plays concerts for people of all religious faiths (or no religious faith), while at the same time, being publicly open about his Christian faith. If you go to his website, there is even a link which pertains to his faith. That is being salt and light! http://www.parkening.com/cplife1.html
15 comments:
Having been in music (jazz no less!) and coupling that with ministry, I've never had any realistic thoughts of "retirement life" as most Americans think of it. It's such a foreign idea to me. Reality wise, but in desire too. No desire to end up in florida on the beach or golf course every day for this bird. But anyway - on to another concern however.
I was actually really put off by how this message was delivered by good ol' JP. Now, I TOTALLY AGREE with what Piper is saying. But while I haven't seen a lot of JP, and the little bit I have heard/seen I've been a little luke warm to, I'm probably feeling a bit colder to him now after seeing this. For the simple reason of how this clip comes off and is produced. I'm just sitting here trying with all my heart to imagine being able to show this to anyone who's NOT a Christian, or even someone who is who does not know JP - and trying to imagine their impression. What do you think it would honestly be? I don't think it would be heard well. He says all of the right things - I don't argue with the content at all - if it were read on the page, I think it would be great. But the manner with which it's presented and produced (production of it has a lot to do with it in my mind, as well as his style) is just wack. The ominous non descript frightening music bed, his somewhat disheveled look that to me, makes him appear a bit off the edge, the whispery over dramatic voice, the hint of southern bible preacher accent, on and on. Maybe JP is just like this all the time and I'm not exposed to him enough? But I'm sorry . . . to the average Joe (I always think of my brother in law who believes in God, but won't step 10 feet inside a church!) I can only imagine JP coming off as somewhat of an over the top "crazy fundamentalist" who would get tuned out in less than a minute - by someone like my brother in law anyway, who's kind of your average "Joe six pack" kinda guy. Maybe I'm being harsh and overly judgmental, but I'm just trying to imagine WHO I would play this for, other than John Piper fans or extremely committed Christians? So I kinda ask why all this to only preach to the choir? I don't know . . . I'm all out for preaching the truth, the gospel, and the message Piper here has to deliver. But as someone very sensitive to how we communicate those messages these days to the average guy on the street, I feel this is just kinda scary if we think this is the way and style to do it.
Thoughts in return? Consider all of the non-churched/non-christians in your life. Would you play this for them? What would they think? Again, remember I AGREE with what's said. I just really am turned off by how it's presented. Hard radical biblical truth can be presented in such a way that it's still extremely convicting and challenging, without it coming off as being over the top, extremist, a bit crazy if you will.
John,
Do you think God effectually calls sinners to repentance? What do you think Jesus meant when he said "my sheep know my voice?"
I agree we shouldn't add to the offensiveness of the Gospel with our presentation, but the Gospel is offensive and it asks for us to have a completely different mind than that of the world. Romans 12:1-2.
I wouldn't expect a nonbeliever to appreciate what John Piper is saying in this video. But I don't think the presentation adds to the offensiveness of Jesus' message.
Jesus said that if we follow him, then we must hate our mothers and fathers and spouses and children and our own lives too. Would you tell THAT to your nonbelieving friends? why not?
My point is that the Gospel is what it is. Trying to pretend it is something different until after somebody "drinks the koolaid" is not helpful and it reeks of trickery.
Let's just show our non believing friends and family the truth in our words and in our actions. Then Jesus' voice will come through us and his sheep will hear his voice and respond to it.
BTW, if you want to see a Piper video that will really "blow their socks off" then take a look at this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s
Thanks Keith. I'll check that out.
I agree with what you say to an extent. I agree that we need not and should not water down the gospel nor make it "kool aid" to go down better. However, I equally also believe that we need NOT make it purposely MORE offensive or harder to hear than it already is. This video and John Piper works way too hard to try and do that, and I believe it is unnecessary. I don't believe Jesus preached that way, nor do I believe He or scripture ever instructed us to preach or communicate that way. If you think that is effective in reaching the lost, I think you're kidding yourself and actually backing down from what's actually harder, more challenging to do. When people say to just "preach the offensive gospel as is" etc. - to me that's a total cop out and backing down from the challenge and model that Christ DOES represent in the creative ways that he himself used to communicate in each and every situation, and to bring himself down to meet people where they were at. Do you think this didn't take a considerable amount of humility, compassion, and creativity/thought from him as to how to do so? He didn't rattle off some complicated theology lesson, as I'm sure He could have. He didn't say "Oh, that's right, I need to make sure the gospel is still "offensive." (buzz word to me.) Remember, He never came at people from a lofty place on high. He met people exactly where they were at with the style, language, stories, metaphor, etc. that spoke to people. He certainly didn't approach communication such as Piper does here. Does he? So what does that ask of us? As Paul instructs us:
"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you."
(I Corinthians 9:19-23)
So if we "wouldn't expect a nonbeliever to appreciate what John Piper is saying in this video" than what on earth is it's purpose then? Piper really doesn't need to be expending this kind of effort, cost, passion etc. to people who pretty much already get this message, does He? Of course, as I see it, that's largely what his ministry is built on, in observing the crowd that I know follows him, while he goes virtually unheard of in other sects of the Christian church world, and in the world itself outside of his followers. This doesn't appear to me to be balanced ministry or effective communication of the gospel. Rather, to me it is more placating a certain sect of believers that seem to revel in this style of ministry that is rather ineffective outside the walls of his already convinced crowd of followers.
Guys,
I think it's probably important to remember that John's intended audience here is most-likely not unbelievers, it's believers.
z
I, too, have a problem WATCHING JP on video. He comes off a little too "something" for me...but I agree with his point here. So many people are not serving the Lord when they're NOT retired and after retirement, they just want to be comfortable and escape. Where are the retirees when there aren't enough sunday school teachers? Where are the retirees when there aren't enough nursery workers? Where are the older christian women who are meant to give younger women wisdom? Where are the older men? From my experience, they are no where to be found. Maybe I'm not running in the right circles, but when I hear that young mothers and fathers, who have been wearied by caring for their children all week are being begged to work in child care at church on Sundays, it saddens me a bit.
Don't get me wrong, too many younger people are truly in pursuit of entertainment as if their life depends on it. Either that, or entertainment for their families in the form of activities to fill up our time. So, this is convicting on a lot of levels.
I agree with John C (as I usually do, I'd like to meet him as we often think a like), in that I'm sick of the christian "production value" video that we are often shown. Videos that seek to evoke some kind of emotion. God's word, when taught properly and obeyed, is enough to convict, teach, and encourage.
John and Amy,
John Piper is an intense man who loves God intensely. I wish that I were more like him, but even the degree to which I *am* like him seems to be a bit much for some Christians. I will not change though, because Piper is right-- life is *serious* business, eternally serious, in the sense that all people either go to be with God eternally, or to eternal punishment, without Him, eternally. How can we *not* be serious in the face of that reality? How can we allow ourselves to get sucked into a lifestyle that is consumed by trivialities, rather than taken up with the *reality* of eternity? (Obviously, we can get sucked into it, because we're terrible sinners, even as Christians.) How can we not be *on guard* against such a mentality?
As Zach wrote, John Piper is speaking to believers here, pleading with them not to be numbed to eternal realities by the lure of physical comfort and materialism. He speaks a message that *every* Christian could stand to hear, including myself. Are any of us really living as radically for God as we could be? That is Piper's challenge, to us and to himself (I know he is preaching to himself too, from things that he has said in past talks).
Amy,
One other thought-- it's ironic that you ask where the older people and the retirees are when it comes to serve in church. That is *exact;y* the sort of sad situation that Piper is addressing with his exhortations to not waste one's life with a comfort-based, retirement mentality.
Sorry, I meant *exactly*-- it has been a long day...
I know Piper is a great Man of God, great writer, thinker, teacher. I know for many He is tops on their list.
I guess for me, the few times I've seen and read Piper, and knowing and rubbing shoulders with several individuals in my life that follow him quite close (one who worked for him) he seems to have made the Christian life out to be one more so of suffering, hardship, toil, darkness, and seriousness to what I feel is an in-balance of this. The people I've known (and from hearing Piper) have been just a little too close to "salvation by works/suffering" if you ask me. (I think if I'm correct, Jesus already was reported to have done the suffering for us, right? :-) I've seen this critique of JP in other credible circles and in print, so I know I'm not totally alone with this point. I just want to tell JP to lighten up once in awhile - have some fun! Go ride bumper cars or something, (as I watched my daughter at her BD party last week.)
Chris, when you state "life is *serious* business, eternally serious, in the sense that all people either go to be with God eternally, or to eternal punishment, without Him, eternally.
Boy, that's a LOT of weight and guilt to carry around on one's shoulders day in day out, isn't it? I'm trying to figure out just how consumed with that we need to be these days. What does God want for us? Does he want us to carry that weight? Do we really have any control/influence over any of that?
I guess I've just always felt this aura from Piper and his followers as if it's all Piper preaches. His followers to me seem to flow into this camp overly serious, suffering zealots that loose their sense of fun and enjoyment in the Christian life. Yes, there are serious matters of faith and God for us to be about. But primarily, God is in control of the situation. I think we give ourselves WAAAAAY to much credit that we can actually do anything about it all, and don't give God enough credit that He's in control of things. The longer I live, the more I feel that way. Does God want us to live with such a HUGE burden on our backs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 12 months a year? I don't think that's what He had in mind. I believe God wants us to enjoy HIM and our life while we have it here - our families, our homes, His creation, my ipod, music, art, sports, sex, wine, food, celebration, tears, laughter, movies, Conan, on and on . . . all within balance of course. I'm not saying we need to all become Joel Osteen. But sometimes, there is a time for just all out jubilation and partying. We Americans think so much of ourselves and that we are obligated and ordained to do so much work for others, ourselves, or God - that I don't believe we spend enough time enjoying this life and others. My friend who lives and works in Canada just took a MONTH vacation in Hawaii - and this is the norm for her. In Europe, they routinely take 3 months a year for vacation time. The average American I think takes about 2 weeks per year.
I worked in churches for some 15 years and to be quite honest, in many ways, relationally, they were the loneliest and emptiest of my life. Just in terms of trying to have community and relationships with fellow work mates and friends - all to busy with church life to make relationships truly first priority. I've been guilty of this myself, but I sure try not to be.
I agree we can't be addicted and caught up in so much materialism and junk entertainment. But I think the material vices/entertainment addiction around us is not an end to itself - rather merely symptoms of the fact that we as humans don't enjoy God, His world, and others enough. It's not this seriousness, suffering, pain, and toil we need to get closer to - it's not "more and more work for God so people don't spend an eternity in Hell" it's more enjoyment of God and His blessings, more time with our family, more time with our friends, more time celebrating and less dwelling on how rotten sinners we all are and how much we have to do before our dying breath in the name of God and eternity to make up for that.
As I get older (44) and see more of life to enjoy and see what I have NOT enjoyed in the name of God and work for Him, and see more and more friends/people my same age loose their life in their prime to hideous things such as cancer, as I did just last week, and put less pressure on myself to perform/work/toil and suffer for God, I find that this path to me is more of what life's about and what God's desire for our life is, rather than the suffering for God Piper so often preaches. It's like with my daughter. Do I want to see her suffer in life, toil, work, be all "serious" all the time? Or do I want her to enjoy all of the precious things in this life - all of the precious people and family - for all their worth first and foremost?
Bottom line, I think some may tend to take teaching from someone like Piper, and turn it into a certain pride that they're doing the REAL work and suffering of God, and not dilly dallying with the trivial matters of life. And I sometimes think I see God just shaking his head and laughing as HE says "Man, you guys just DON'T get it, do you?! I wanted you to ENJOY life in me!!" What do you think I put all this here for? What else could be the reason? Suffering? For me?"
Lately in the midst of some life transition, I've dwelled on one of my favorite books/verses with this in mind: "So I commend the enjoyment of life, because nothing is better for a man under the sun than to eat and drink and be glad. Then joy will accompany him in his work all the days of the life God has given him under the sun.
So that's where I"m at these days.
OK . . . anyway . . . back to work.
John,
Here is something for you to try and I mean this in all seriousness. Take about a year and read 3 chapters from the New Testament a day. You'll get through it a few times. After the year come back reread the comments that you just made and see what you think. My sense is that your comments are not that biblically informed in terms of the whole tone of the New Testament. If we are Christians we should be people of the Book and it would probably do all of us good to do this exercise that I outline. I know I need it.
z
John,
In terms of what you said about God wanting us to enjoy God... It really sounds like you need to read Desiring God. He deals with this issue from cover to cover. It would help you understand Piper and it would also help you understand what it means Biblically to enjoy God. You can read it for free online.
z
John,
First, I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. I will be praying for you.
Second, I am sorry-- I should have made it clear that for the Christian, life is both serious *and* joyful business. In John Piper's writings, the joy that we are Biblically called to find in God is quite often the *context* of our being willing to live radically for Him. It's not even even primarily a matter of our "suffering" or not suffering. It's about finding joy in God that is so great (because *He Himself* is so great!) that we will not look at making radical sacrifices for Him as being "suffering" in the first place.
About peoples' eternal destinies, we do not, and should have to, bear that weight on our shoulders. God converts people; we do not-- which is not to take away from our responsibility (and *joyful* privilege!) to evangelize.
However, even as we do not bear the *ultimate* burden for peoples' eternal destinies on our shoulders, isn't the reality of eternity itself a serious one-- one which should cause us to guard our hearts against being *overly* preoccupied with earthly pleasures, to a degree that our view of eternity grows dim and our hearts grow complacent? I think that this is the sort of pointed question that Piper is raising to fellow Christians (and to himself) in the video.
Thanks guys. Good posts. I remember trying to get into "Desiring God" and just couldn't for some reason. But it's still on the shelf! Could have been where I was at in the moment.
I think any eye opener for me lately? Removing myself from working for/attending Church (Chris, if you don't know I was in vocational ministry for 20 some years and then in the past year have stepped down from that - for many complicated reasons - not all by choice, but I did find it was the best thing I've ever done in the end) as well as Christian culture, worship music, most of my friends (who were all associated with church here - kind of came with the territory/job as you know) and just about anything and everything else to do with Christianity apart from the Bible. It's been quite an eye opener. Especially to see, at least in our community here, how invisible and hidden church/Christian life/culture is and really has very little impact. At least in our neck of the woods. So it's really made me re-think how I live my life as a Christian.
Anyway . . . a few thoughts I thought I'd throw out.
Chris - I'd sure love to meet you somehow someday - where do you live? I live in Iowa City. I actually took Zach's job at the church he was at here before he moved to Nashville, then New Mexico.
John,
I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico and am a member of the church where Zach serves as the music leader. It would be great to meet you too!
I agree with you that the "culture" of Christians and church can often be "invisible" and "hidden" to those who aren't in it. For example, while I do think that there is a place for music made by Christians for Christians, we are also called to be salt and light, in the world but not of it. I greatly respect the classical guitarist, Christopher Parkening, and how plays concerts for people of all religious faiths (or no religious faith), while at the same time, being publicly open about his Christian faith. If you go to his website, there is even a link which pertains to his faith. That is being salt and light! http://www.parkening.com/cplife1.html
Have a blessed Thanksgiving!
I meant to type, "and how *he* plays concerts for people of all religious faiths..." (Parkening, that is)
It's late... I should be in bed!
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