My former college roommate, turned huge Christian blogstar, Justin Taylor, has published a series of guest posts today on his blog today in reaction to the election. Some very strong commentary here to think through:
Eric Redmond
Francis Beckwith
Anthony Carter
Randy Alcorn
12 comments:
These are great and very balanced posts. Thank you for posting them. It still confirms for me in their wisdom, even though most did not vote for Obama, that in any case, we indeed cannot be single issue voters. I especially like that they are very mature and respectfully written. I especially like Eric Redmond's post and where he states:
"For example, in our day, it is not the governmental regulation that slaughters the innocent; it is the people who chose to end the lives of their children, and the willing executioners who kill for the sake of the monetary gain afforded by the abortion industry. The government only allows this sin to receive legal permission and protection. Nevertheless, that same government provides many laws that allow me to worship in freedom, preach the Gospel freely, vote in an election, and write blog posts like this one without fear of censorship or death. I readily can recognize the retention of "some kind of just government" under President Obama's rule.
Watching the celebration happening last night in my home town of Chicago, and seeing countless African Americans so proud . . . and realizing ALL that has happened in their history up to this point - I can only rejoice for that aspect of what this has done already and hopefully will do for a country in bringing it together - a country where our white race still needs to repent for our ancestors sins against other races long ago and all throughout the years. The picture I will always remember from last night is Obama, his wife, Biden, his wife, joining hands and walking to the front. A great picture of how our country (and our CHURCHES) should be. White, black, young, old, man, woman, joining hands in unity and respect for one another. (And of course all of the races.) Racial strife and division is just so stupid when you really think about it. Can you believe all that has happened throughout history because of people's color? Perhaps not until we become a country that can totally 100% see past color issues in each and every moment of each and every day - something that should be SO easy and obvious, maybe THEN our country will be able to wise up to what should be the just as obvious (but obviously very complicated) issues of abortion. I personally feel our country Tuesday night took a HUGE step in the right direction towards that and many things. Perhaps that all has to happen first. I choose not to merely tolerate Obama, but I hope and pray earnestly for His spiritual maturity while in office and for God to reveal His truths to him in very clear ways.
Eric Redmond's post brightened my day yesterday. He is such a beautiful brother in the Lord. *Everyone* in the U.S., Christian or not, should read his post. I sent a link for it to a friend who is a deist, and he was very inspired by it.
I'm up late (or early), after some unusual sleeping hours, listening to that Earth, Wind, and Fire CD, "Gratitude." Zach, you *have* to hear this-- these guys are funk *incarnate*! :-)
John C,
What article did you read? You apparently missed the whole thrust of Redmond's post, especially where he said, "I voted for lives of the unborn rather than for approval from the vast majority of my own ethnic community."
His point had absolutely nothing to do with being glad that an African-American was elected President, but that rather he was choosing to be "Christocentric" rather than "Afrocentric". Your comment shows the opposite. You're more concerned about trying to help atone for the sins of some white men in the past against some people of color by electing a President on the basis of skin color rather than on the principles for which he stands. Eric Redmond made the difficult and courageous choice to do the opposite. As he wrote, "I could not vote in such a way that I would have ignored the blood flowing from fertility clinics, for I know that the Almighty would repay my cowardice."
Eric Redmond made a heroic choice in my book, a choice to put principle ahead of race even if it cost him many of his friendships, and to put the defense of the unborn ahead of the supposed "injustice" of an economic recession. I think you need to read his post again and take your blinders off.
John Fraser: My 2nd half comments weren't necessarily directed as commentary on Redmond's article. I totally caught everything he said and resonate with that. The 2nd half comments were just my own thoughts as I watched a historic moment for our country, and especially african americans. Dig? I was just happy to see that.
That said, I do personally think however that we're going to find many of our fears on Obama and abortion way over stated. Just my personal opinion.
John C,
Why should our concerns about Obama and abortion seem overstated to you? Obama has the most radically "pro-choice" voting record of any President-elect in American history!
I saw you mention elsewhere that we should have hope that Obama will change on this issue, because he is "intelligent" and "young." John, those factors have *very little* to do with discerning spiritual realities-- such as the reality that *all* human life is made in the image of God and therefore, should be protected. Intelligence and youth cannot correct the spiritual condition of a heart which not only does not see the horror of legal abortion on demand but positively *encourages* it!
so you're saying that for some reason, God can't change a man's heart while he's president of the united states? Why the heck not?
he's intelligent, meaning he's smart enough to keep asking questions and seek the truth - if you know anything about the man at all, you know this is a trait of his - he is a perpetual learner. And he's young meaning he's probably not fully set in his ways - unlike someone who's say, 72, and changing his ways right and left. GET IT?
If you don't have HOPE and the will to PRAY that God can work in the life of this man the same as he can as anyone else, I'm not sure what God you're following.
So ya - go ahead and condemn him now I suppose. It's obvious there's no hope for the guy. Right.
I tell ya man . . . .you all sure remind me of these guys called the Pharisees in the Bible. And I'm not the only one out here saying that. Loosen up for cryin' out loud.
From http://www.respectourpresident.org
"Right now few things are a greater threat to our country than the venomous anger we express toward other Americans with whom we disagree. Many politicians and pundits write off such division saying that it's what's great about America, but this kind of bitter division is not a positive expression of our freedom.
For eight years many Christians and conservatives did everything in their power to destroy Bill Clinton justifying it as righteous protesting. Over the course of the following eight years liberals did everything in their power to discredit and undermine George W. Bush. Neither of these two presidents were anywhere near perfect, but they were (are) the president of our country. What this means is that for 16 years half of the country has had a vested interest in seeing the president utterly fail and many have acted to ensure that he would.
It's time to reverse the trend. This group is devoted to the idea that the president is worthy of respect and that our country is better off when people of all political persuasions support him.
The president of the United States should be treated with respect for the following reasons:
1) Whether we like him or not, he was selected by the majority of our peers. Their opinions matter and should be regarded as important.
2) Whether we like him or not, he is the most powerful person in the world. That power must be acknowledged.
3) Whether we like him or not, he is uniquely positioned to do great good.
4) Whether we like him or not, he is the caretaker of our country. It benefits us all if he is successful.
5) Whether we like him or not, he is our ambassador to the world. It speaks well of us to the rest of the world if we esteem the leader we chose.
6) Whether we like him or not, treating him with dignity and honor nurtures a national environment of harmony and, when appropriate, respectful disagreement. Conversely, despising and deriding the president compromises our ability to engage in honest discussion for the greater good and causes us to deteriorate into a nation that is easily manipulated by the powerful. It may seem like a stretch, but I'm convinced that respecting our president lessens the influence of the often inflammatory and manipulative media.
7) Whether we like him or not, respecting our president sets a precedent of respect between us all.
8) Whether we like him or not, it is in our religious DNA to honor the president. Christians especially engage in willful sin when the curse, dishonor, and slander the president. For people of many religious persuasions it is morally right and even a command of God to show right respect to the president.
With this in mind, I urge those whose candidate did not win to handle the defeat with maturity and class. Further though, I urge those voters whose candidate was defeated to support the winner. We should actively root for his success and for the success of his policies. When he succeeds, we succeed.
None of this is to say that we must agree with the president. There are two categories of disagreement that I think we should conceive of differently. The first is disagreement regarding the means of achieving agreed upon goals. While I may be convinced that one economic system is the way to economic success; I should still support a president who advocates another system, but still seeks economic success. The second type of disagreement is over social and moral issues. Though I may never agree with a pro-choice president on the issue of abortion, I can express that disagreement lawfully and respectfully knowing that reasoned debate and honest persuasion will accomplish much more than hateful words. Either way, we're entitled to disagreement, but we should disagree constructively and never seek to undermine our president with our words or actions.
It's time for us to respect the president again; whether it be in agreement or in disagreement. It's time for us to root for his policies and root for America even if it makes our side look bad.
Join us in restoring civility, brotherly and sisterly respect, patriotism, and healthy discussion to American politics and culture.
This is an open group. Please invite anyone and everyone.
Let's make November 4th the beginning of a new way of speaking, acting, and thinking politically.
- Matt W., U.S. American
Contact Info
Website:
http://www.respectourpresident.org
John C,
Wow, brother... I don't see how the harshness of your response was warranted by what I actually wrote. I simply made an observation (one that is very Biblically justifiable) that the factors of Obama'a being "intelligent" and "young" are not sufficient, in and of themselves, to indicate that his heart will necessarily change on abortion-- because, in the end, how one sees abortion is a *heart* issue, *not* a matter that is easily reducible to one's intelligence or age.
Spiritual matters are spiritually discerned. One can be as intelligent as Einstein and not see (or perhaps, not *admit*) that abortion is murder, because it takes more than mere "intelligence" to admit that hard truth. It also takes more than the "willingness to ask questions," because short of God's intervening work in a person's heart, a person will always stop short of asking hard questions which challenge his/her sinful presuppositions about life.
Now, I'm not saying that God can't or won't intervene in Obama's heart to cause him to ask hard questions of himself about abortion. Believe me, I hope and pray that God *does* intervene in that exact way! I'm just saying that it is unrealistic, regarding fallen human nature, to think that intelligence or relative youth, in and of themselves, will lead a *militantly* pro-choice politician, with *years* of voting in that way, to drastically change his/her mind (and heart) on the issue. God *can* bring about that change though-- and I pray that He will do so in Obama's heart and mind on the horror of abortion (because it is a *horror*, not just an "issue").
I'm sorry Christopher. I drank just a little too much last night and it really riles me up. (kidding.)
I think (what I meant) was that it was supposed to be a given that of course there's a whole lot more beyond JUST intelligence and being young that one has to have to have a change of heart. I just listed that as being two things that I think help work in his favor. But hear ya on everything else.
I just hear so many people saying things like "We'll just have to put up with him now and pray for him and our country" etc. etc. as if the man can't grow a bit morally and spiritually while in the white house. It kinda gets to me.
I've had some insight into Presidents first hand. (now you might sluff this off as not credible) but our pastor at my former church (a rather high profile minister - you might be able to easily guess who I'm talking of) was asked by then president elect Clinton before he took office (at a retreat where he invited many prominent spiritual leaders to ask questions of before he took office) if he would be his spiritual adviser if he asked him. Our pastor prayed about it, sought guidance from the church elders, and, upon some STRICT groundwork laid with Clinton of what this would actually be if he agreed (regular all out hard core personal discipleship) he took it as a call from God to disciple the "most powerful man in the world." He also hoped it would stay private, which unfortunately, it did not.) But anyway, he met with him for years once a month (at his own expense I believe) and they actually got to be close friends. But he also told of his distinct difference of opinion on many things (namely abortion) and how he made that clear up front, and how they would be hitting that hard on and he wouldn't let up. He told us on staff of all out shouting matches in the oval office that could get pretty ugly. Yet they still were friends. He told us of how Clinton was undoubtedly one of the smartest, brightest, quickest thinking men he'd EVER met in his life. How he could quote scripture verbatim, address and all, off the top of his head. How he truly wanted to lead as a born again Christian but felt the challenge of trying to do that in a democracy, not a theocracy, as Clinton put it early on (why he had the spiritual retreat in the first place.) Anyway - you can say that looking back at Clinton, none of it did any good I guess. No one really knows except Clinton and our pastor. I don't know if their relationship was maintained or not after his presidency. But it was fascinating to hear some of those stories, and to know the type of person our pastor was, his character etc, who was going head to head with him in the oval office, and this kind of stuff was actually happening. (I actually got to visit the white house with him once and perform, myself being a saxophonist as clinton was. ) And to know from our pastor and get just a glimpse of what a guy like Clinton was really like in terms of intelligence and smarts, and his desire to try and be worthy and faithful in his presidency vs. how the media and culture tends to make him out as a buffoon. Granted, he messed up bad, ya. As all of us will do. But our pastor took this calling (at great personal expense to his own reputation in "Christian circles" (Dobson disowned him and released him from his board of directors - how do you like that?) on as a chance to use his evangelism and discipleship gifts with a sinful man who needed spiritual help just as much as any sinful man would.
All that to say - I just know of the opportunities that can arise for Christians inside the oval office and the kind of impact that we can be allowed to have. And that Obama is smart, young, probably still impressionable and perhaps willing to listen and take guidance in faith matters. Who knows.
All that to say, I cringe when I see how Christians speak of someone like Obama, and what that can do to our chances of having any influence at all with him (or the non christian world) and the witness we have. (I heard the other day in an interview with someone close to the Obama camp that one of O's most disheartening things he hears that REALLY bothers him is how people - especially Christians - have called him - a man with two young daughters - a "baby killer." Maybe you say he should be bothered by that statement. Problem is, it's not truly a true or fair statement to make, and certainly not at all "Christian" of us to make those kinds of statements.
Anyway - I think we're both on the same page. Sorry for my foul response. I was in a lousy mood after a 20 hour day. Maybe hopefully some of this expresses why I get pretty bent out of shape these days at how some Christians have acted. I frankly sometimes don't even want to call myself one anymore for that very reason. I'll come up with some other name I guess! Not sure what that is yet!
BTW - Chris - are you on Facebook by chance?
- J
one thing to further elaborate on that I forgot, was how ugly and demeaning the Christian world treated our pastor after it became open knowledge he was meeting with Clinton (an AP photographer snapped a picture of Clinton praying on the back porch of the white house with an "unknown minister" at it was put out.) OMG - the faxes, emails, letters, people that left our church, hate mail, death threats, you name it. He took a brutal beating for trying to LOVE and DISCIPLE for CHRIST a man in the highest political office in our nation by the very core of Christian church and culture that SHOULD have been the biggest supporter. And then he got it AGAIN when he had him speak at an event held by an organization associated with our church. ('HOW can you let THAT sinful man speak on OUR church stage?) and more hate mail came from all over the world from CHRISTIANS and more people left the church. However many that GET what discipleship and loving others as Christ would stayed and DID get it. But anyway. . . . so I'm just a leeeetle bit sensitive when I start hearing Christians ragging on presidents, calling names, etc. etc. I've seen the absolute worst of Christian culture first hand. Ain't pretty. We all need to consider this each and every time we think, speak, post a video, a blog post, etc. about someone like Obama or anyone else for that matter.
Thanks - I'm done now!! :-)
John C,
Thank you so much for the helpful, clarifying comments and observations, brother. I do agree that the media's treatment of your former pastor was shameful. To be up-front, I cannot, in good conscience as a Christian, vote for *any* "pro-choice" politician, and if I were a pastor/elder, I would be *very careful* about having a pro-choice person speak from the stage at the church at which I served.
Having said that though, I think that by meeting with Clinton, your pastor was actually doing a very wonderful thing-- including, but not limited to, his challenging of the President on important moral issues, such as abortion. The Christian media, and its most vocal voices, should have never "disowned" your pastor for meeting with Clinton. What a lamentable witness on those Christians' part!
To briefly consider the "other side," I don't mean to be offensive, but I do wonder if Bill Clinton is actually a Christian. Only God ultimately *truly* knows (knows with *perfect* knowledge, I mean-- I'm sure that Clinton's family and close friends have a pretty good idea as to the genuineness of his faith).
However, if Clinton was *not* a Christian while in office (and I'm not saying that was necessarily the case), then that gave your pastor even *more* reason to want to meet with him! In my experience, far too many Christians simply did not present a thoughtful, Biblical witness to the world in how they publicly spoke of Clinton. I was not a true Christian at the time of Clinton's Presidency (I was Catholic at the time, but I didn't truly know God in a saving way), but I did hear Christians speak of him in ways that did not exemplify how God's people are to speak of their governmental leaders.
Hopefully, that bad witness in our words ("our" meaning Christians) will not be the case with how we speak of Obama, even as we seriously, passionately disagree with him on abortion (and, at least for for me, on other issues as well).
John C,
I forgot to answer your question about Facebook. I'm not on there at this point, but that may change. I finally *did* set up a MySpace page, even if it is the least visually exciting one on the net! :-) http://www.myspace.com/thatibelongtogod
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