We don't wait to die to become immortals. "I came so that you may have life and life more abundantly." There is no grace-for-now rhetoric here. Everything now sucks. "But it's only 80 years!" He almost speaks of life as if it is one big 80 year mass suicide. This, I believe, is profoundly contrary to the Gospel, and highly greek influenced, which is not Good News.
All prosperity talk aside, (which I agree with WHAT HE SAYS about riches) John speaks very fatalistically here. It is right on the edge of gnostic-cliff in some ways. "This life sucks, wait till heaven."
The truth of Jesus' message, rather than "this life sucks" is "In this world you will have trouble, but my peace I leave you." Not, "wait till heaven," even though heaven and earth will be renewed upon his return and the goodness we experience now is only a glimpse of what is to come. But at least there are glimpses, and the Kingdom invasion has begun, and the prince of this world and been toppled and this world, right now, is being changed by his great love, even as we speak: A preparation for the feast.
I suppose I fundamentally disagree with Piper's teaching all the way back to his ideas of heaven and earth. The earth is not garbage for the heap, it is to be someday healed, as are our bodies.
However, I really love and respect his great Calvinist mind and passionate heart. I can't help but listen to him, no matter how I might disagree.
Have you read Desiring God? If not, I would pick it up. It's his best work and will show you that he is not the stark dualist that you might assume from this clip. He is pushing hard against the horror of the over realized eschatology of the prosperity preachers. He is speaking in extremes to make a point I think.
Consider this: The abundant life was lived by Jesus and he got crucified, so we might want to redefine what we mean by "abundance". Thoughts?
I think I've read excerpts of that and have had large chunks of it read to me in bible studies and so on, but each time I'm warmed by him and bothered by him. Not bothered because he "convicts" me, though he might, but bothered because what he says seems so contrary (in many ways) to what I believe about creation, salvation, and this life now. But then I agree with a big LOAD of what he says. I suppose I could say the same for Joel Osteen too. :-) To bad they are both not perfect and humble like me. Hey, just working it out here with fear and trembling like the rest.
Your question... I would say, He came, suffered and died SO THAT-
One of the reason Christianity spread so fast through Egypt was that it was so contrary to their life-is-pain-and-torture beliefs. It was hope, love, joy, peace, starting NOW. This new faith brings and brought persecution, but they did not and do not, hopefully, extinguish them to the point of losing hope for tomorrow or the next minute. It was the energizing Joy of the Holy Spirit that thrust the disciples out of the upper room and into the crowded streets. Joy, then and there. Joy so great it could not be contained. Life, abundant.
Eternity begins now and now and now and now, not after our body breaths its last. (I suppose I shouldn't judge on this one clip...) It is for each moment from beginning to end that Jesus came and died, so that each moment can be more abundant in knowing God more rather than without hope or joy for now and waiting till death.
Would i consider good health, a good job and a loving wife a part of that abundant life? Yes, (James 1:17) but always knowing that the Lord gives and he takes away, but whether he gives or takes, it is for my good and His glory, and never for me to lose hope and sit around and wait to croak.
I agree with your last phrase. Jesus did not die so that we could have health, wealth and miracle. He said that if the world hates him, it will hate us. But in the sense of which you speak, who cares?! We know that Jesus has given us meaning, life, and joy now. Yes, but all the while we live in the tension of the already and the not yet. Suffering is a Biblicaly norm. You can read you Bible and not get that. But there can even be joy in suffering like Jesus. For the joy set before him...
I don't think he's saying "this life sucks, wait till heaven". I think he's saying that those who say the gospel is all about riches in the here and now are misleading new believers. The gospel is about "my peace I leave with you" in good times and bad. It's about dying to self and that means letting go of selfish ambitions, including the desire to be rich.
Heaven is a great place because we will be in the presence of God and His Son, Jesus; not because there will be streets of gold. I think we will hardly notice those streets once we get there because we will be so overwhelmed with the beauty of Christ.
I would certainly trade all my riches here on Earth for that.
6 comments:
I thought that said OBAMAnate the prosperity gospel.
Man...Piper getting political with it! ;)
We don't wait to die to become immortals. "I came so that you may have life and life more abundantly." There is no grace-for-now rhetoric here. Everything now sucks. "But it's only 80 years!" He almost speaks of life as if it is one big 80 year mass suicide. This, I believe, is profoundly contrary to the Gospel, and highly greek influenced, which is not Good News.
All prosperity talk aside, (which I agree with WHAT HE SAYS about riches) John speaks very fatalistically here. It is right on the edge of gnostic-cliff in some ways. "This life sucks, wait till heaven."
The truth of Jesus' message, rather than "this life sucks" is "In this world you will have trouble, but my peace I leave you." Not, "wait till heaven," even though heaven and earth will be renewed upon his return and the goodness we experience now is only a glimpse of what is to come. But at least there are glimpses, and the Kingdom invasion has begun, and the prince of this world and been toppled and this world, right now, is being changed by his great love, even as we speak: A preparation for the feast.
I suppose I fundamentally disagree with Piper's teaching all the way back to his ideas of heaven and earth. The earth is not garbage for the heap, it is to be someday healed, as are our bodies.
However, I really love and respect his great Calvinist mind and passionate heart. I can't help but listen to him, no matter how I might disagree.
Seth,
Have you read Desiring God? If not, I would pick it up. It's his best work and will show you that he is not the stark dualist that you might assume from this clip. He is pushing hard against the horror of the over realized eschatology of the prosperity preachers. He is speaking in extremes to make a point I think.
Consider this: The abundant life was lived by Jesus and he got crucified, so we might want to redefine what we mean by "abundance". Thoughts?
z
Not purposefully, though I should!
I think I've read excerpts of that and have had large chunks of it read to me in bible studies and so on, but each time I'm warmed by him and bothered by him. Not bothered because he "convicts" me, though he might, but bothered because what he says seems so contrary (in many ways) to what I believe about creation, salvation, and this life now. But then I agree with a big LOAD of what he says. I suppose I could say the same for Joel Osteen too. :-) To bad they are both not perfect and humble like me. Hey, just working it out here with fear and trembling like the rest.
Your question... I would say, He came, suffered and died SO THAT-
One of the reason Christianity spread so fast through Egypt was that it was so contrary to their life-is-pain-and-torture beliefs. It was hope, love, joy, peace, starting NOW. This new faith brings and brought persecution, but they did not and do not, hopefully, extinguish them to the point of losing hope for tomorrow or the next minute. It was the energizing Joy of the Holy Spirit that thrust the disciples out of the upper room and into the crowded streets. Joy, then and there. Joy so great it could not be contained. Life, abundant.
Eternity begins now and now and now and now, not after our body breaths its last. (I suppose I shouldn't judge on this one clip...) It is for each moment from beginning to end that Jesus came and died, so that each moment can be more abundant in knowing God more rather than without hope or joy for now and waiting till death.
Would i consider good health, a good job and a loving wife a part of that abundant life? Yes, (James 1:17) but always knowing that the Lord gives and he takes away, but whether he gives or takes, it is for my good and His glory, and never for me to lose hope and sit around and wait to croak.
Sorry, rambling- Thanks for the discussion!
Seth,
I agree with your last phrase. Jesus did not die so that we could have health, wealth and miracle. He said that if the world hates him, it will hate us. But in the sense of which you speak, who cares?! We know that Jesus has given us meaning, life, and joy now. Yes, but all the while we live in the tension of the already and the not yet. Suffering is a Biblicaly norm. You can read you Bible and not get that. But there can even be joy in suffering like Jesus. For the joy set before him...
z
I don't think he's saying "this life sucks, wait till heaven". I think he's saying that those who say the gospel is all about riches in the here and now are misleading new believers. The gospel is about "my peace I leave with you" in good times and bad. It's about dying to self and that means letting go of selfish ambitions, including the desire to be rich.
Heaven is a great place because we will be in the presence of God and His Son, Jesus; not because there will be streets of gold. I think we will hardly notice those streets once we get there because we will be so overwhelmed with the beauty of Christ.
I would certainly trade all my riches here on Earth for that.
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