Whenever I hear Mr. Osteen speak, I am struck by how he often references himself as a legitimate source of truth. Here he assumes that the church background he grew up in represents "the purest form" of Christianity.
I write the following in an attempt to be open. I hope I do not come across as divisive or as attacking.
As a Mormon, I believe the following:
There is one way to eternal life, and it is through Jesus Christ, the only Begotten Son. God the Father sent us his Son so that we could have the opportunity to repent and return to live with both of them. That gift of salvation is given freely. I try to emulate the Savior in my daily life, attempting to love the Lord with my all and to love my neighbor as myself. I fail frequently. I believe that God will forgive me of my sins as I strive to accept the gift of the salvation of Christ more fully in my life. I will never deserve to be forgiven. I try to love him, because he first loved me.
Whether or not people think my religion is Christian is an interesting question to me, given that the above are the core tenets of my religion and of my personal faith. I hope people will see me as a Christian regardless of what they think of my religion.
Thanks for weighing in Hugh! I think it is important to know the differences between Mormonism and Christianity and make those clear. I would love to chat with you more about this in person if you want to sometime in the future!
I think the big difference is that orthodox Christianity has always defined the Trinity (Jesus is fully God as the second person of the Trinity) as central to the definition of what it means to be a Christian. Mormonism would not embrace this view and so would fall out of the bounds or biblical Christianity. In addition, having a different authority (The Book of Mormon) than the Bible (or in addition to) would be a big difference between Christians and Mormons. The final big difference would be the place of good works and how those relate to salvation.
So in sum it really boils down to three central questions:
1. Who is Jesus? 2. What is the final authority? 3. How does one get saved?
I am sure that Mormons and Christians answer these questions differently and so I think it is important to use different words ("Christians" or "Mormons") to delineate those very important distinctions. We are not all "Christian" in the same sense.
Again, thanks for giving your perspective and if you want I would love to chat more about this!
Well said, Zack. I find it interesting that Mormons and unbelievers who take part in the conversation get offended when Christians say Mormons are not true Christians. Doesn't Mormon teaching say that only Mormons are true Christians?
No, 'orthodox Christianity' has not 'always' taught the doctrine of the Trinity as 'central to what it means to be a Christian'. The is not one solitary example of evangelism or conversion in the New Testament where the concept of The Trinity is made a condition of salvation - or even discussed!
Tim Challies' ridiculous, wildly inaccurate, and borderline heretical comments aside, there are Christians who do not view The Trinity as others do, and are every bit the Christians that the rest of us are. In fact, you acknowledge this in your "three central questions" on salvation, none of which involve accepting any particular definition of The Trinity.
That said, I don't view Mormonism as Christian either. At the most, it's an offshoot of Christianity. Practically, however, it should be seen as separate and apart from Christianity for various reasons.
Ok Dan, interesting point. Where would you set the boundary lines then?
But my questions do deal with the Trinity issue. It's in #1. Who is Jesus? Is he just a man? Created by God? God as the 2nd person of the Trinity? What is Jesus? The Council of Chalcedon dealt with this in 451. This first question is extremely trinitarian in nature. Do you think we should just chuck the creeds of the Christian faith? Should they create any type of boundary for how we define Biblical Christianity?
My opinion (and it's only that), would be that anything not made a condition of salvation in the bible is not a condition of salvation. As a result, someone could, for example, be a modalist (to use the theory attacked by Challies) and still accept the divinity of Jesus. Doing so would be in conflict with certain teachings of the church, but would not be in conflict with scripture.
Don't forget, Calvinism has not always been 'orthodox' either, so not accepting 'orthodox teaching of the church' does not disqualify someone from being a Christian, unless we are prepared to declare that Calvinists are not (or were not always) Christians.
I agree with you that there are boundaries. That's why we have denominations. Different beliefs on items of interpretation which are not central to salvation. Those groups have common beliefs and, as a result, join together with likeminded folks.
But, we simply cannot let ourselves fall into the trap of assuming that even though the concept of The Trinity (as commonly accepted by a majority of Christian) is a defining characteristic of being a Christian, when it's not even mentioned ONE TIME in the entire New Testament. It may be correct or incorrect, but it is most certainly a theory created by man.
Sorry, I hijacked your post to rail on Challies as an aside. I had a strong reaction to his comments :)
I do agree with your central claim, however, that Mormonism shouldn't claim to be 'Christian'. They differ on so many issues that they should just accept that it's a 'separate' religion. That said, I'll vote for Romney in a heartbeat if he's the nominee.
By the way, to clarify, I think doctrinal statements and creeds are great! They help crystallize what we believe and remind us of the bonds that bring us together as congregations and denominations.
The problem, in my view, comes when we confuse what defines us a Reformed, or Methodist, or Presbyterian or Church of Christ (or whatever) with what defines us as Christians. I believe that there are certainly beliefs that define us as Christians. But those are found in scripture, not in doctrines of man (whether I agree with them or not).
Does a person need to have a correct understanding of the Trinity to be saved? If so, then I had been a confessing believer for about 3 years before I was saved. I do accept the Nicene & Chalcedonian creeds, now. Back then, I was very confused on the nature of Jesus. But I had believed what I now see as the four central condition for being a Christian: 1) God exists, 2) I'm a sinner, 3) Jesus died for my sins, 4) Jesus was resurrected. If a correct understanding of the trinity is needed for salvation to occur, then our witnessing just got a lot tougher. Having said that, I believe part of discipleship is to teach new believers the orthodox understanding of the Trinity, and all other major doctrines.
I resonate with much of what you wrote, but this is wack bro (just sayin' cause I love you) :)
"But, we simply cannot let ourselves fall into the trap of assuming that even though the concept of The Trinity (as commonly accepted by a majority of Christian) is a defining characteristic of being a Christian, when it's not even mentioned ONE TIME in the entire New Testament. It may be correct or incorrect, but it is most certainly a theory created by man."
So much of what you believe as a Christian is not "explicit" per se but you still hold it to be true and essential. The dual nature of Christ as fully God and fully man is never explicitly laid out with the term "hypostatic union", the doctrine of the dual authorship of the Bible is not explicit but we hold it to be true, mystery of divine sovereignty and human responsibility is not laid out but is certain central to understanding the Bible. We could go on and on.
Do you really want to say that the Trinity is only a theory? I would say that even though you don't find the word "trinity" in the Bible doesn't mean it or many other Christian doctrines are not completely Biblical and have much more weight than simply being relegated to the land of "theory".
Are you comfortable with those other things just being "theories" as well. You would have to be if you are going to be consistent. Just my take.
If one is a Christian and believes that The New Testament sets forth the sole pathway to salvation, then one must also accept that it is fully complete in that regard (see Deut 12:32, Prov 30:5-6).
Alternatively, if one believes that he Council of Nicea had authority to add to those requirements, then a person can choose to believe that.
The concept of The Trinity may in fact be correct. However, to add to the beliefs required for salvation those items not set forth in the NT as required for salvation is explicitly forbidden.
I again remind you that 'Reformed' Theology is not 'orthodox' in the larger picture of Christianity. Thus, to argue that one must accept 'orthodox' views as necessary for salvation is a dangerous road.
Regarding Mormons as Christians, it really boils down to what is meant when using the term Christian. A general definition of a Christian religion would be any religion centered on Jesus Christ and his teachings. There are many more specific definitions, with different levels of exclusivity/inclusivity. If you use a general definition of Christianity, it would be very difficult to argue that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not doctrinally centered on Jesus Christ.
Every religion has its differences, and on those points my personal policy has been to agree to disagree while loving those with whom I disagree. I would like to address your three main differences from an LDS (another short form for Mormon--Latter-day Saint) perspective.
1. Jesus Christ: As a Mormon, I would say Jesus is fully God as the second member of the trinity and I think most Mormons would agree with that statement. He is the only source of salvation. Is the only Begotten of the Father. He is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the basis of everything.
2. The Book of Mormon: Once again, if you're using a definition of being Christian that precludes any sort of authority outside of the Bible, then the Book of Mormon would make us non-Christians according to that definition. But under a general definition of Christianity (anyone Christ-and-his-gospel-centered), I would argue the Book of Mormon wouldn't kick us out of Christianity since the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to teach about Christ and to add a second witness to what the Bible teaches about Him. Its goal is to testify of Christ. I am aware that this is vastly different than what most Christians believe. My often unasked question to those who view us a non-Christians is why would a book teaching about Christ make us non-Christian?
3. Works and Salvation: There's so much that could be written here, but I'll try to be brief in presenting my Mormon perspective. Doing good works does not make us deserving of forgiveness. When we accept Jesus Christ in our lives, he gives us the gift of forgiveness in spite our rebellion from God through sin. We love him (strive to obey the commandments and follow him--John 14:15) because he first loved us (provided us with mercy while we were yet sinners). We do not earn God's love or earn forgiveness through praying x times per day or keeping 63% of the commandments. I believe God does bless us with certain things as we strive to obey him (e.g. "blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled" from Matt 5).
Again, my purpose here is just to clarify what I, as a Mormon, believe. If you use the term Christian to mean a religion centered in Jesus Christ and his teachings, I would argue that Mormons are definitely Christians. If, however, you define Christian as one who adheres to post-New Testament creeds or traditions, we would fall out of that definition. But even if you use the second definition, I think we have more in common than most evangelicals and mormons would. There are some big differences, but there are some big similarities. We are both based in striving to emulate Christ and accept him in our lives.
To Mike Lynch: It depends what you mean by "true Christians."
I think it would be safe to say Mormons believe their church is true in the same way I would guess most believers believe their beliefs are the true ones. That doesn't mean I scoff at those who believe differently, but that I lovingly agree to disagree when it comes to matters of doctrine. I like to talk doctrine with people and I find richness in what different Christian churches emphasize, but that doesn't mean I accept what everyone believes into my own system.
My definition of Christian is a general one. If a religion professes a belief in Christ as the source of salvation, that's Christian to me, even when other beliefs they may have (transubstantiation for example) I don't agree with.
As a Mormon I would assume that you believe the following. If not, please correct me, but I believe this is the official teaching of the LDS church:
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).
Is Jesus a created being or eternally existent with the Father?
"They have a different Jesus, a different Father, a different Gospel, a different way to be saved, a different heaven and no hell, other wise were exacaly the same." A comment someone made on another blog about the same topic.
1. I do believe that they, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are three separate beings and there are some good New Testament verses upon which that is based, as well as revelation through modern-day prophets. I'm not sure if you're looking for more clarification on that or not.
2. It looks like Gospel Through The Ages was written by Milton R. Hunter, who I've never heard of. If it's not in the Standard Works (which include the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price) probably isn't as authoritative as I think you're thinking.
The short answer to number 2 is yes.
The longer answer would go into more detail. Mormons the Only Begotten and the Son of the Morning, along with all of us, are/were spiritual children of God the Father, which would make Jesus Christ, lucifer, and all of us brothers and sisters in a way. That concept, that we are all spiritual offspring of God the Father together with its logical extrapolations, has to be interpreted with all the other scriptures about Jesus Christ, including versus in the New Testament and in LDS scripture that affirm his eternity, his omniscience, and omnipotence.
And this guy is usually pretty thorough:http://m.b5z.net/i/u/6125685/f/Cults_Mormons_Madness_of_Mormonism.pdf It would be good for anyone with questions about the weird ideas of Mormonism and I'd like to know what Mormons think of the document.
Mike: Most recent link (http://m.b5z.net/i/u/6125685/f/Cults_Mormo) isn't working for me.
The definition of cult from the first article is sweepingly broad.
A question I have for the people is reading is do you ascribe to a general definition of Christianity (my own given above) or a specific definition? What does Christian mean to you, individually? Why is the term used?
My purpose in posting is to posit that Mormons believe in Jesus Christ.
http://www.stanmurrell.org/resources The link not working is here under Mormonism.
Hugh, I think Zack was pointing this out, but Mormons DO NOT believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. I what you're saying is the case, JWs are Christians and even Muslims are if I'm not mistaken. Heck, even demons believe in Jesus. (Although they believe in that they know Jesus, AT LEAST they know the Jesus of the Bible--God the Son.)
One does not need to know EVERY doctrine of the Bible to be saved, BUT if one is saved they will eventually, given the time, come to learn who this Jesus is they believe in. It isn't the one found in the Mormon cult.
I don't know enough about Jehovah's Witnesses to say if they believe in Jesus as their Savior. They may or may not count as Christians. I'm certain Muslims don't believe in him as a Savior, but merely as a prophet, which would put them out in my book. Doesn't make them bad people. It just means they follow Islam.
"Mormons DO NOT believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible."
I may not not believe in your interpretation of the Bible, but I and Mormons believe in the Bible. We study the Bible. Our interpretations differ, yes, but we both read the Bible and believe in it.
24 comments:
Whenever I hear Mr. Osteen speak, I am struck by how he often references himself as a legitimate source of truth. Here he assumes that the church background he grew up in represents "the purest form" of Christianity.
What's the tragic part of this video?
Well I believe that they are Christians???
I don't respond to anonymous comments. Leave a name with legit link and I would love to chat
I write the following in an attempt to be open. I hope I do not come across as divisive or as attacking.
As a Mormon, I believe the following:
There is one way to eternal life, and it is through Jesus Christ, the only Begotten Son. God the Father sent us his Son so that we could have the opportunity to repent and return to live with both of them. That gift of salvation is given freely. I try to emulate the Savior in my daily life, attempting to love the Lord with my all and to love my neighbor as myself. I fail frequently. I believe that God will forgive me of my sins as I strive to accept the gift of the salvation of Christ more fully in my life. I will never deserve to be forgiven. I try to love him, because he first loved me.
Whether or not people think my religion is Christian is an interesting question to me, given that the above are the core tenets of my religion and of my personal faith. I hope people will see me as a Christian regardless of what they think of my religion.
Thanks for weighing in Hugh! I think it is important to know the differences between Mormonism and Christianity and make those clear. I would love to chat with you more about this in person if you want to sometime in the future!
I think the big difference is that orthodox Christianity has always defined the Trinity (Jesus is fully God as the second person of the Trinity) as central to the definition of what it means to be a Christian. Mormonism would not embrace this view and so would fall out of the bounds or biblical Christianity. In addition, having a different authority (The Book of Mormon) than the Bible (or in addition to) would be a big difference between Christians and Mormons. The final big difference would be the place of good works and how those relate to salvation.
So in sum it really boils down to three central questions:
1. Who is Jesus?
2. What is the final authority?
3. How does one get saved?
I am sure that Mormons and Christians answer these questions differently and so I think it is important to use different words ("Christians" or "Mormons") to delineate those very important distinctions. We are not all "Christian" in the same sense.
Again, thanks for giving your perspective and if you want I would love to chat more about this!
Well said, Zack. I find it interesting that Mormons and unbelievers who take part in the conversation get offended when Christians say Mormons are not true Christians. Doesn't Mormon teaching say that only Mormons are true Christians?
No, 'orthodox Christianity' has not 'always' taught the doctrine of the Trinity as 'central to what it means to be a Christian'. The is not one solitary example of evangelism or conversion in the New Testament where the concept of The Trinity is made a condition of salvation - or even discussed!
Tim Challies' ridiculous, wildly inaccurate, and borderline heretical comments aside, there are Christians who do not view The Trinity as others do, and are every bit the Christians that the rest of us are. In fact, you acknowledge this in your "three central questions" on salvation, none of which involve accepting any particular definition of The Trinity.
That said, I don't view Mormonism as Christian either. At the most, it's an offshoot of Christianity. Practically, however, it should be seen as separate and apart from Christianity for various reasons.
Ok Dan, interesting point. Where would you set the boundary lines then?
But my questions do deal with the Trinity issue. It's in #1. Who is Jesus? Is he just a man? Created by God? God as the 2nd person of the Trinity? What is Jesus? The Council of Chalcedon dealt with this in 451. This first question is extremely trinitarian in nature. Do you think we should just chuck the creeds of the Christian faith? Should they create any type of boundary for how we define Biblical Christianity?
My opinion (and it's only that), would be that anything not made a condition of salvation in the bible is not a condition of salvation. As a result, someone could, for example, be a modalist (to use the theory attacked by Challies) and still accept the divinity of Jesus. Doing so would be in conflict with certain teachings of the church, but would not be in conflict with scripture.
Don't forget, Calvinism has not always been 'orthodox' either, so not accepting 'orthodox teaching of the church' does not disqualify someone from being a Christian, unless we are prepared to declare that Calvinists are not (or were not always) Christians.
I agree with you that there are boundaries. That's why we have denominations. Different beliefs on items of interpretation which are not central to salvation. Those groups have common beliefs and, as a result, join together with likeminded folks.
But, we simply cannot let ourselves fall into the trap of assuming that even though the concept of The Trinity (as commonly accepted by a majority of Christian) is a defining characteristic of being a Christian, when it's not even mentioned ONE TIME in the entire New Testament. It may be correct or incorrect, but it is most certainly a theory created by man.
Sorry, I hijacked your post to rail on Challies as an aside. I had a strong reaction to his comments :)
I do agree with your central claim, however, that Mormonism shouldn't claim to be 'Christian'. They differ on so many issues that they should just accept that it's a 'separate' religion. That said, I'll vote for Romney in a heartbeat if he's the nominee.
By the way, to clarify, I think doctrinal statements and creeds are great! They help crystallize what we believe and remind us of the bonds that bring us together as congregations and denominations.
The problem, in my view, comes when we confuse what defines us a Reformed, or Methodist, or Presbyterian or Church of Christ (or whatever) with what defines us as Christians. I believe that there are certainly beliefs that define us as Christians. But those are found in scripture, not in doctrines of man (whether I agree with them or not).
I'll stop hijacking your comments section now :)
Does a person need to have a correct understanding of the Trinity to be saved? If so, then I had been a confessing believer for about 3 years before I was saved. I do accept the Nicene & Chalcedonian creeds, now. Back then, I was very confused on the nature of Jesus. But I had believed what I now see as the four central condition for being a Christian: 1) God exists, 2) I'm a sinner, 3) Jesus died for my sins, 4) Jesus was resurrected. If a correct understanding of the trinity is needed for salvation to occur, then our witnessing just got a lot tougher. Having said that, I believe part of discipleship is to teach new believers the orthodox understanding of the Trinity, and all other major doctrines.
Sife,
I resonate with much of what you wrote, but this is wack bro (just sayin' cause I love you) :)
"But, we simply cannot let ourselves fall into the trap of assuming that even though the concept of The Trinity (as commonly accepted by a majority of Christian) is a defining characteristic of being a Christian, when it's not even mentioned ONE TIME in the entire New Testament. It may be correct or incorrect, but it is most certainly a theory created by man."
So much of what you believe as a Christian is not "explicit" per se but you still hold it to be true and essential. The dual nature of Christ as fully God and fully man is never explicitly laid out with the term "hypostatic union", the doctrine of the dual authorship of the Bible is not explicit but we hold it to be true, mystery of divine sovereignty and human responsibility is not laid out but is certain central to understanding the Bible. We could go on and on.
Do you really want to say that the Trinity is only a theory? I would say that even though you don't find the word "trinity" in the Bible doesn't mean it or many other Christian doctrines are not completely Biblical and have much more weight than simply being relegated to the land of "theory".
Are you comfortable with those other things just being "theories" as well. You would have to be if you are going to be consistent. Just my take.
If one is a Christian and believes that The New Testament sets forth the sole pathway to salvation, then one must also accept that it is fully complete in that regard (see Deut 12:32, Prov 30:5-6).
Alternatively, if one believes that he Council of Nicea had authority to add to those requirements, then a person can choose to believe that.
The concept of The Trinity may in fact be correct. However, to add to the beliefs required for salvation those items not set forth in the NT as required for salvation is explicitly forbidden.
I again remind you that 'Reformed' Theology is not 'orthodox' in the larger picture of Christianity. Thus, to argue that one must accept 'orthodox' views as necessary for salvation is a dangerous road.
Regarding Mormons as Christians, it really boils down to what is meant when using the term Christian. A general definition of a Christian religion would be any religion centered on Jesus Christ and his teachings. There are many more specific definitions, with different levels of exclusivity/inclusivity. If you use a general definition of Christianity, it would be very difficult to argue that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not doctrinally centered on Jesus Christ.
Every religion has its differences, and on those points my personal policy has been to agree to disagree while loving those with whom I disagree. I would like to address your three main differences from an LDS (another short form for Mormon--Latter-day Saint) perspective.
1. Jesus Christ: As a Mormon, I would say Jesus is fully God as the second member of the trinity and I think most Mormons would agree with that statement. He is the only source of salvation. Is the only Begotten of the Father. He is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the basis of everything.
2. The Book of Mormon: Once again, if you're using a definition of being Christian that precludes any sort of authority outside of the Bible, then the Book of Mormon would make us non-Christians according to that definition. But under a general definition of Christianity (anyone Christ-and-his-gospel-centered), I would argue the Book of Mormon wouldn't kick us out of Christianity since the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to teach about Christ and to add a second witness to what the Bible teaches about Him. Its goal is to testify of Christ. I am aware that this is vastly different than what most Christians believe. My often unasked question to those who view us a non-Christians is why would a book teaching about Christ make us non-Christian?
3. Works and Salvation: There's so much that could be written here, but I'll try to be brief in presenting my Mormon perspective. Doing good works does not make us deserving of forgiveness. When we accept Jesus Christ in our lives, he gives us the gift of forgiveness in spite our rebellion from God through sin. We love him (strive to obey the commandments and follow him--John 14:15) because he first loved us (provided us with mercy while we were yet sinners). We do not earn God's love or earn forgiveness through praying x times per day or keeping 63% of the commandments. I believe God does bless us with certain things as we strive to obey him (e.g. "blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled" from Matt 5).
Again, my purpose here is just to clarify what I, as a Mormon, believe. If you use the term Christian to mean a religion centered in Jesus Christ and his teachings, I would argue that Mormons are definitely Christians. If, however, you define Christian as one who adheres to post-New Testament creeds or traditions, we would fall out of that definition. But even if you use the second definition, I think we have more in common than most evangelicals and mormons would. There are some big differences, but there are some big similarities. We are both based in striving to emulate Christ and accept him in our lives.
To Mike Lynch: It depends what you mean by "true Christians."
I think it would be safe to say Mormons believe their church is true in the same way I would guess most believers believe their beliefs are the true ones. That doesn't mean I scoff at those who believe differently, but that I lovingly agree to disagree when it comes to matters of doctrine. I like to talk doctrine with people and I find richness in what different Christian churches emphasize, but that doesn't mean I accept what everyone believes into my own system.
My definition of Christian is a general one. If a religion professes a belief in Christ as the source of salvation, that's Christian to me, even when other beliefs they may have (transubstantiation for example) I don't agree with.
Hugh,
As a Mormon I would assume that you believe the following. If not, please correct me, but I believe this is the official teaching of the LDS church:
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).
Is Jesus a created being or eternally existent with the Father?
"They have a different Jesus, a different Father, a different Gospel, a different way to be saved, a different heaven and no hell, other wise were exacaly the same."
A comment someone made on another blog about the same topic.
1. I do believe that they, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are three separate beings and there are some good New Testament verses upon which that is based, as well as revelation through modern-day prophets. I'm not sure if you're looking for more clarification on that or not.
2. It looks like Gospel Through The Ages was written by Milton R. Hunter, who I've never heard of. If it's not in the Standard Works (which include the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price) probably isn't as authoritative as I think you're thinking.
The short answer to number 2 is yes.
The longer answer would go into more detail. Mormons the Only Begotten and the Son of the Morning, along with all of us, are/were spiritual children of God the Father, which would make Jesus Christ, lucifer, and all of us brothers and sisters in a way. That concept, that we are all spiritual offspring of God the Father together with its logical extrapolations, has to be interpreted with all the other scriptures about Jesus Christ, including versus in the New Testament and in LDS scripture that affirm his eternity, his omniscience, and omnipotence.
Just some of the reasons Mormonism IS a cult: http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/no-other-gospel/
And this guy is usually pretty thorough:http://m.b5z.net/i/u/6125685/f/Cults_Mormons_Madness_of_Mormonism.pdf
It would be good for anyone with questions about the weird ideas of Mormonism and I'd like to know what Mormons think of the document.
Mike: Most recent link (http://m.b5z.net/i/u/6125685/f/Cults_Mormo) isn't working for me.
The definition of cult from the first article is sweepingly broad.
A question I have for the people is reading is do you ascribe to a general definition of Christianity (my own given above) or a specific definition? What does Christian mean to you, individually? Why is the term used?
My purpose in posting is to posit that Mormons believe in Jesus Christ.
http://www.stanmurrell.org/resources
The link not working is here under Mormonism.
Hugh, I think Zack was pointing this out, but Mormons DO NOT believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. I what you're saying is the case, JWs are Christians and even Muslims are if I'm not mistaken. Heck, even demons believe in Jesus. (Although they believe in that they know Jesus, AT LEAST they know the Jesus of the Bible--God the Son.)
One does not need to know EVERY doctrine of the Bible to be saved, BUT if one is saved they will eventually, given the time, come to learn who this Jesus is they believe in. It isn't the one found in the Mormon cult.
I don't know enough about Jehovah's Witnesses to say if they believe in Jesus as their Savior. They may or may not count as Christians. I'm certain Muslims don't believe in him as a Savior, but merely as a prophet, which would put them out in my book. Doesn't make them bad people. It just means they follow Islam.
"Mormons DO NOT believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible."
I may not not believe in your interpretation of the Bible, but I and Mormons believe in the Bible. We study the Bible. Our interpretations differ, yes, but we both read the Bible and believe in it.
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