Randy Alcorn:
Please don't tell me abortion isn't the only issue. Of course it isn't. Treatment of the Jews wasn’t the only issue in 1940 Germany. Buying, selling and owning black people wasn’t the only issue in the United States of 1850. Nonetheless, both were the dominant moral issues of their day. Make no mistake about it. In our own day if we support a candidate who defends abortion, who is dedicated to that cause, we are supporting the killing of children. Yes, even if he’s the coolest candidate to come along in decades.Read the rest.
22 comments:
More of the same rhetoric if you ask me.
Now to me, this http://www.prolifeproobama.com/ is a much better way of going about communicating your message. This really warrants reading. Whether you agree with the premise or not, it's sensible, straight to the point, addresses the actual problems and provides solutions, is not extremist, does not try to distort or stretch truth, etc. People might actually just listen to communication like this and take action, rather than just be turned off by pro-life negative rhetoric that no one but the Christian choir is listening to - trust me.
And again, I ask you - whether you support Obama or not - do you really think Obama - the reasonable and collected one you saw on TV last night - walks around, with a respectable wife and 2 young daughters, and under some kind of evil criminal motive says "Yep, I just LOVE killin' them babies!! Makes my heart glad!" For crying out loud, he stated what he thought of abortion last night on national TV. ("nobody's pro-abortion. I think it's always a tragic situation." Yet, we continue to use extremist name calling and rhetoric by saying he's "killing babies" and comparing it to the holocaust or slavery. But I beg to differ and that it goes much deeper and more involved than those comparisons. And I fear we're walking on dangerous ground when we resort to such tactics. After all this time, if you have THIS much division in the country over an issue such as abortion, in a day and age of better enlightenment, education, communication, instant information, and yet, the country is still THIS divided over the issue, don't you think it's at least remotely possible to buy a clue and determine that our current manner of fighting the issue is NOT working and only serving to make things worse and more divided? With this in mind, this why I lean towards feeling as if Obama, even if I may not agree with him on certain aspects of this whole thing, I believe his demeanor and approach in the end will offer better results than what has proven to NOT be working for years. How can you give credible evidence that any other alternative WILL do any further good and not just keep things in a stagnated divided state?
John,
When our country legally sanctions the killing of 45 millions babies, what would you call that?
This is not a "tactic" is raw fact. Obama saying his is not "pro-abortion" is complete BS. Come on, John, you are smarter than this. Look at his voting record. He says was he needs to say in order to get elected.
z
JOhn,
You can't seriously believe this do you?
"With this in mind, this why I lean towards feeling as if Obama, even if I may not agree with him on certain aspects of this whole thing, I believe his demeanor and approach in the end will offer better results than what has proven to NOT be working for years."
Do you know that the Freedom of Choice Act is? How does that correspond to what you state here about Obama? This is simply delusional brother.
http://theologica.blogspot.com/2008/08/obama-and-freedom-of-choice-act.html
"And again, I ask you - whether you support Obama or not - do you really think Obama - the reasonable and collected one you saw on TV last night - walks around, with a respectable wife and 2 young daughters, and under some kind of evil criminal motive says "Yep, I just LOVE killin' them babies!! Makes my heart glad!" For crying out loud, he stated what he thought of abortion last night on national TV."
- Please explain to me why it matters whether Obama "wants to kill babies" or not, if he openly supports policies that allow it to happen. Please, just explain to me what difference it makes what he "wants" if the paradigm he supports allows it to happen.
If I don't personally support lynching blacks, but support a law that allows it, what does it matter what I personally support?
The thought process of people blinded by their new, shiny, idol truly amazes me.
My recent reflections on this election (my first to vote in) and one-issue voting have led me to some of G.K. Chesterton's writings in Orthodoxy:
"Now, I have not lost my ideals in the least; my faith in fundamentals is exactly what it always was. What I have lost is my old childlike faith in practical politics."
To borrow some more of Chesterton's thoughts on the narrow irrationality of narrow rationalism, it seems much of this rhetoric has centered on a very narrow definition of many things. In the realm of politics, it makes no sense to legislate the peculiar but rather to legislate the universal.
Sife,
That is a GREAT point.
z
"The thought process of people blinded by their new, shiny, idol truly amazes me."
And the thought process of people not able to look beyond only one of many important issues effecting people of all ages, backgrounds, walks, and faiths, and non-faiths, truly amazes me.
"Please explain to me why it matters whether Obama "wants to kill babies" or not, if he openly supports policies that allow it to happen."
Because in a Democracy (not a theocracy) where after years and years of this dilemma, I think he's smart enough to realize that things are probably not going to change for the better the way we're moving now on any issue - including abortion - especially with the way pro-lifers are trying to go about changing it. It's NOT working. GET IT? Do you see that? (see my comments under "Common Ground On Abortion.")
And arrogant comments such as "new and shiny idol" and being called "delusional" don't help.
If we're all so concerned about 4,000 unborn babies being killed each and every day, we really ought to stop doing the easy fashionable things such as posting videos, copying blog articles filled with rhetoric, and start putting our muscle and money where our mouth is if we're not already. We'd better start finding and backing ways to help 4,000 mothers a day facing abortion if that's the case. We'd better change around an economy and society that can help those 4,000 mothers wanting or needing to have an abortion and address why they're in that position in the first place. (I believe it's a lot more complicated than just "love of sex" as Z stated in an earlier post.) We'd better stop taking thousands of dollars to fashionably adopt foreign children and start pouring those same thousands of dollars into helping local organizations that help unwed single mothers find options to abortion - and providing ways for unwanted children in our own back yard to have homes. We'd better have strong ministries in and outside of churches for these causes. Do you think the militant and negative demeanor of the pro-life side has served to set up a culture of doing that? Or one that comes off as purely judgmental?
Laws will most likely not change anything at this point and only serve to make matters worse in the end. Helping people change their hearts and circumstances will.
To me, there are millions of people in our own backyard - from infants to the elderly that are in need of help and support in this country that are NOT getting it. These living people are equally as precious in God's eye's as millions of unborn babies. No more or less innocent to their conditions. Lifting abortion to such a level where we so overlook and dismiss issues that are equally important to equally valuable souls in God's eye's, while certainly noble and with good intention, is yet an unbalanced initiative in my opinion.
John,
Please see that this...
"Because in a Democracy (not a theocracy) where after years and years of this dilemma, I think he's smart enough to realize that things are probably not going to change for the better the way we're moving now on any issue - including abortion - especially with the way pro-lifers are trying to go about changing it. It's NOT working. GET IT? Do you see that? "
Does answer that question in the least. Do you see that?
z
John,
There is WAY too much here to respond to, but I feel as though you keep changing the subject and bringing up different issues. Can we just stay with one instead of long rants?
z
John,
What I meant to say was "does not answer the question in the least"
Let stick with "no one is for abortion" and go from there. I could write a term paper on your last post, but obviously I don't have time to do that.
z
John C,
I have a physical disability, am struggling to find a job, and am currently living below the (American) poverty line. I sure feel as if *I* need help-- yet I don't care *what* Obama, as President, might do to "help" me. He doesn't show any signs of wanting to "help" the millions of unborn babies who aborted every year in America to actually have the legal right to LIVE. I don't care how Obama might help me-- I'm not going to be so selfish as to put myself and my interests above the lives of unborn babies when I cast my vote on November 4.
I meant to write, "millions of unborn babies who *are* aborted every year"...
John C,
Also, Zach *is* putting his muscle and money where his mouth is-- he and his wife are currently in the process of adoption. I would do the same if I had the money and a wife to help in raising the child. Not all Bible-believing Christians who vote pro-life are *just* about talking, protesting, and posting videos on blogs.
Laws will not change anything, in regard to abortion? Are you truly serious, John? During his time in office, President Bush (Jr.) appointed two pro-life judges to the Supreme Court, which resulted in the *outlawing* of *partial-birth abortion*!
I think we've all made our points clear and can respectfully agree that we may disagree. I think we all want the same things - compassion & justice for the born and unborn. I think we may have differences of just how to go about getting there. I don't think we'll settle any more of this in a blog. I think we can all agree God's in control. He's not deaf to man's division over these issues.
John C,
You made more than one very serious statement, concerning abortion, the behavior of evangelicals, and other issues, in your last post. These statement needed to be addressed, and I addressed them. I have to wonder, John-- do you not want to answer what I wrote, in response to your post, because you don't actually *have* legitimate answers?
Also, John, the fact that God is in control is *no* excuse for Christians to act irresponsibly by voting for THE most "pro-choice" (choice to murder unborn babies or not) presidential candidate in American history.
Christopher - if I'm correct, Zach is adopting from a foreign country. Nothing wrong with that. And I really don't know the motivating reasons, benefits, or hardships between adoption from a foreign country, vs. adoption in the U.S. I could be naive to the true reason. I know there's a need of every sort for foreign adoptions. But every Christian couple I know that has talked of adoption (many) has only talked of adoption from a foreign country - it's like that's all they consider. With all due respect, I just get the impression that there's some sort of higher moral value or Christian brownie points attached to foreign adoption. Rather than adopting from the good ol' U.S.of A. Where heaven knows, there is just as much need. Perhaps even more. I don't know. And then you have someone with the kind of money a Steven Curtis Chapman has adopting several foreign children and pushing that as a big part of his ministry. How 'bout some of that wealth going to U.S. adoptions and helping mothers in need of abortions? To me, quite honestly, after awhile of seeing this over and over, it just seems to come off as being the "fashionable Christian thing to do." If I had the resources myself, or was going to raise the resources to adopt, and had a deep emotional conviction about preventing abortions/pro-life, I I can't think of a good reason why I wouldn't do everything I can to seek out an organization - some possible way to help a mother considering abortion to change her mind to adoption, and be the parent that would take that child. Maybe someday I'll be lead and blessed with the circumstances to do that. I'd sure love to.
Christopher: regarding addressing your statements - I very honestly didn't think I saw anything there that required an answer of me. In your first reply you simply stated your convictions based on your personal experience. I respect that and your position. I just addressed your note about Zach's adoption intent. And I am aware of the appt. of two SC Judges who helped outlaw partial birth. I also think I've read where they haven't gone along with every single pro-life agenda either if I'm correct. (It would take me awhile to find where I read that, but I don't think it's as perfect of a situation as one would like - i.e. the appt. of conservative supposed pro-life judges does not guarantee everything wanted. But yes, it certainly should help.) Very honestly, my response out of thisi conversation was not a cop out. I've just been at this all day, and frankly am worn out on it and need to spend some family/work time! And between these posts and others on different posts, I think I've said all I need to say. At this point it's serving no purpose other than to just riff back and forth about the same things over and over.
It's not the only issue! The issue is the man's charather. Can we trust a man that claims Christianity and votes pro-abortion? Or, is a man more trusted when willing to stand for what he believes even if it may mean losing an election? My vote is not only for a man with Christian values, but a man willing to speak out, not waver, and stand strong for his convictions. That is a man worth trusting with more issues than just the pro-life issue.
BHO is a slippery, slippery dude.
If you watched the debate last night, you'd've thought he was almost pro-life.
McCain did a good job of calling out some of his slick talk and revealing it for what it was.
Yes, John and other BHO supporters, there are other issues ... and he's wrong on them, too! Conditioning people to rely on the government rather take personal responsibility? Punishing hard work and "spreading the wealth" around?
But none is more egregious than his position on infanticide ... and none more deceptive, either.
Romans 1. We're watching it unfold right before our eyes. Scary.
I know this discussion has most likely ended but in the off-chance it has not I would like to offer an observation.
I find it incredibly strange anyone would offer up Obama's stance on abortion (the policies, not the rhetoric) and suggest he is the best choice to end abortion or reduce the number thereof. The only thing I can compare it to is the belief that Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis' position on slavery were the wisest positions that would end such a deeply entrenched institution.
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